Which Who Stories Have you seen lately?

The Daleks (1963). A captivating masterpiece full of tension and atmosphere. The regulars are as wonderful as ever, and the Dalek City is oppressively eerie and claustrophobic. The story's quality more than matches its historical significance.

Shame The Ordeal is so shit.

ClockworkOcean wrote:The Daleks (1963). A captivating masterpiece full of tension and atmosphere. The regulars are as wonderful as ever, and the Dalek City is oppressively eerie and claustrophobic. The story's quality more than matches its historical significance.

Indeed.
I suppose if I was a perfectionist, I'd have trimmed the last two eps down into one, but I'm just bit-picking really.

I had this clearly delusional idea that on the basis that in the past I've revisited much of the RTD era, (apart from the specials which I can't abide) that I should do the same with the Moffat era, most of which I've only ever seen on broadcast, and some not at all.
I lasted about 10 minutes into The Eleventh Hour, before annoyance overwhelmed me, and I had a 'why the fuck are you even doing this?' moment.
Even accounting for the obligatory post-regeneration whackiness, the sheer level of forced eccentricity makes it all so shockingly unwatchable.
When Dr Who was at its best, even the post-regeneration goofiness was so subtle by comparison. Whether it be Pertwee's 'Shoes!' moment, or even Tom running on the spot, having a quick karate chop, or changing his clothes 3 times, it was all pretty short and sweet.
But here we have to endure several minutes of Matt Smith spitting various foodstuffs all over the place, just in case anyone might have forgotten that the Doctor (in classic years at least) could be a bit eccentric at times. Which of course in NuWho levels of subtlety, is tantamount to the Doctor running around repeatedly shouting I AM ECCENTRIC! I AM ECCENTRIC! whilst wearing a T-shirt with I AM ECCENTRIC! I AM ECCENTRIC! emblazened across it.
In fact, in NuWho that's not even post-regeneration whackiness, that's just the Doctor most of the time.
On the positive side, I think I've realised how much NuWho I can stand in one go. About 10 minutes. Which means I might be able to finish the episode in about 4 days time. Maybe.

The 11th Hour is great. It's different from Tom pratting around in Robot how exactly?

Well I thought I was reasonably clear already, but it's all about brevity and not going over the top. And secondly it's about subtlety vs gratuity.
As I said, Tom's post regeneration whackiness is pretty short and sweet, and certainly much more subtle that having to watch Matt Smith gobbing various foodstuffs about all over the place. I mean once could be forgiven, but as usual with NuWho, it assumes you won't get it unless it's rammed down your throat. Subtlety is not exactly NuWho's strong point.

I like The Eleventh Hour, and don’t mind the post-regeneration behaviour here as much as I do with most of Tennant’s acting in series 2 and 4 especially (not least because Smith is likely the much better actor), but I suppose Ronnie has a point concerning how exaggerated his behaviour is during the scenes where he tries different foods. There is something a little obnoxious about how forced some of it can get, and it does echo New Who’s worst excesses, although I’d still argue that Smith’s performance throughout the rest of series 5 is infinitely more Doctorish than his two New Who predecessors, mainly because the forced eccentricity is dialed back for most of the other stories and so he comes across as more naturalistic. Though this may be my bias for the season talking, given my personal affection for series 5, and due to my assessing as such mainly from memory.

Though there are many moments in series 6 where such a caricaturisation comes back and haunts Smith’s Doctor, and it is certainly at its worst for most of series 7.

Bernard Marx wrote:although I’d still argue that Smith’s performance throughout the rest of series 5 is infinitely more Doctorish than his two New Who predecessors

I wouldn't really disagree with that, but it's not about the actors. The scene I singled out was more to do with the production team deciding what's appropriate than a criticism of Smith's performance.
It wouldn't matter which actor was called upon to repeatedly gob food out all over the place, it's the fact they're having to do it at all.

iank wrote:The 11th Hour is great.

For sure. I fell back in love with the show after that one.

I'm at the point now where I can hardly stomach any NuWho at all, even the parts I previously held in high regard. Knowing what it descended into and what disgusting human beings most of the writers behind it truly are, I find myself incapable of suspending disbelief. I also find it increasingly hard to get angry at the classic series. Sure, The Ordeal is mostly inconsequential filler The Daleks could probably have done without, but I'll take it over the disastrously, permanently consequential artistic crimes of NuWho. These days, I'd rather watch Revenge of the Cybermen than The Time of Angels, not because the former is a better story, but because sincere mistakes are more forgivable than malicious vandalism, and Moffat is the epitome of a malicious vandal.

ClockworkOcean wrote:I'm at the point now where I can hardly stomach any NuWho at all, even the parts I previously held in high regard. Knowing what it descended into and what disgusting human beings most of the writers behind it truly are, I find myself incapable of suspending disbelief. I also find it increasingly hard to get angry at the classic series. Sure, The Ordeal is mostly inconsequential filler The Daleks could probably have done without, but I'll take it over the disastrously, permanently consequential artistic crimes of NuWho. These days, I'd rather watch Revenge of the Cybermen than The Time of Angels, not because the former is a better story, but because sincere mistakes are more forgivable than malicious vandalism, and Moffat is the epitome of a malicious vandal.

I don’t tend to re-watch New Who much anymore for similar reasons, but also due to how cynically crap so much of it is anyway, even without the context of future stories in mind. Honestly, with the exception of series 5 and parts of 6, I’ve no time for any of it anymore- it’s aged horrifically. I found myself re-watching The Daemons after re-watching Boom Town earlier this month, and was stunned in the difference in intelligence and earnestness. The Daemons isn’t especially popular around these parts, it seems, but I’ll lay this down- The brief discussion in episode 1 concerning existentialism between The Master and Miss Hawthorne has more intelligence and wit behind it than 99% of New Who (as does the oddly endearing setting with shades of The Wicker Man), and certainly more charm and subtext than fucking farting aliens and a gurning caricatured Doctor.

The same goes for The Brain Of Morbius, which also seems somewhat unpopular around here amongst some- though some of the story is absurd and parodic in its execution, its merging of archetypal gothic literature and Frankenstein in a science-fiction context, coupled with a pertinent message about superstition and progress makes it a story that at least has something to say, and one with a unique literary status in Who history. This is very much the case with Talons too, as well as countless other classic series stories. What does something like New Earth have to say beyond the surface? Or Doomsday? Or Journey’s End? Or Nightmare in Silver, Kill the Moon etc that doesn’t extend beyond superficial preaching? So much of New Who is so hollow beneath the surface that it’s frankly baffling that both Classic and New Who are supposed to be the same programme. Even taking the subsequent vandalism of the New Who production team out of the equation, it’s never been a good programme in the first place, barring the infrequent standout story.

Oh- and although The Ordeal is inconsequential and certainly a filler, it commits no further crimes than that, and the rest of the story is superb in its own right to the extent where such a meagre flaw is insignificant. The one thing I can thank New Who for in the long term is introducing me to Doctor Who, but my interest certainly wouldn’t have been sustained for long were it not for the Classic series. I still enjoy the best parts of New Who, but it does generally leave a sour taste now.

I persevered with the first eight years of NuWho for the two or three more impressive stories it tended to produce per series, simply because nothing else on TV filled the Doctor Who-shaped hole. With great actors like Smith and Capaldi in the role, it always seemed like a return to form was still possible, but now that we're several billion light-years past the point of no return, I can't be arsed with any of it. The only brief period of NuWho that holds up to any degree (Series 5/6) is bookended by patronising, vacuous, dumbed-down mainstream pandering at one end and hateful, bigoted, extremist propaganda at the other.

ClockworkOcean wrote:I persevered with the first eight years of NuWho for the two or three more impressive stories it tended to produce per series, simply because nothing else on TV filled the Doctor Who-shaped hole. With great actors like Smith and Capaldi in the role, it always seemed like a return to form was still possible, but now that we're several billion light-years past the point of no return, I can't be arsed with any of it. The only brief period of NuWho that holds up to any degree (Series 5/6) is bookended by patronising, vacuous, dumbed-down mainstream pandering at one end and hateful, bigoted, extremist propaganda at the other.

Completely agreed. Couldn’t have put it better myself.

Bernard Marx wrote:I suppose Ronnie has a point concerning how exaggerated his behaviour is during the scenes where he tries different foods. There is something a little obnoxious about how forced some of it can get.

Tune in tomorrow to see if I can get through another 10 minutes.

Ronnie wrote:
Tune in tomorrow to see if I can get through another 10 minutes.

Just don’t ever go near Twice Upon a Time or Resolution if you’re struggling this badly to sit through The Eleventh Hour. That’s all I feel obliged to say.

iank wrote:The 11th Hour is great. It's different from Tom pratting around in Robot how exactly?

Agreed, in fact I would argue that the 4th Doctor acts far more erratic and fast-paced in Robot than the 11th Doctor in Eleventh Hour. Chopping up a brick in half, skipping around on a skipping rope, deciding to wear the most completely overly eccentric outfits, are far more louder and over-the-top than 11 just trying other foods. And on a personal note, every time I watch Robot, I can't wait until the Doctor actually leaves UNIT HQ with his actual outfit, because he is incredibly annoying during his 'eccentric' scenes. The only thing that I can knock against 11 in the Eleventh Hour is that scene where he throws the Bread and Butter out of the house, which was funny, but it didn't need to be there.

Bernard Marx wrote:

Ronnie wrote:
Tune in tomorrow to see if I can get through another 10 minutes.

Just don’t ever go near Twice Upon a Time or Resolution if you’re struggling this badly to sit through The Eleventh Hour. That’s all I feel obliged to say.

You have to account for the fact that I haven’t watched ANY NuWho for years, and going into it straight from watching a Pertwee story is a bit of a culture shock.
It’s makes you realise how bad it all is by comparison.
If I ever get as far as Twice Upon a Time, I’ll probably be be more acclimatised (or dumbed down?) into thinking Eleventh Hour is good.

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:

iank wrote:The 11th Hour is great. It's different from Tom pratting around in Robot how exactly?

Agreed, in fact I would argue that the 4th Doctor acts far more erratic and fast-paced in Robot than the 11th Doctor in Eleventh Hour. Chopping up a brick in half, skipping around on a skipping rope, deciding to wear the most completely overly eccentric outfits, are far more louder and over-the-top than 11 just trying other foods. And on a personal note, every time I watch Robot, I can't wait until the Doctor actually leaves UNIT HQ with his actual outfit, because he is incredibly annoying during his 'eccentric' scenes. The only thing that I can knock against 11 in the Eleventh Hour is that scene where he throws the Bread and Butter out of the house, which was funny, but it didn't need to be there.

Something else I’ve realised in retrospect is Tom behaves this way for approximately half of the story, and mainly settles down as the Doctor by the end of part 2. Matt stops being voluntarily over the top after the food scenes and more quickly settles down. Though I’ve acknowledged that some of the eccentricity is forced, there are worse examples of this in Who history, and I still rate the story and Matt’s Doctor rather highly (at least in series 5). I’ll agree that Pertwee’s “shoes” scenes were certainly subtle, but I don’t know if I’d say the same for Tom. To be honest, I find Eccleston infinitely more annoying in Rose than Smith in The Eleventh Hour in retrospect.

Ronnie wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:

Ronnie wrote:
Tune in tomorrow to see if I can get through another 10 minutes.

Just don’t ever go near Twice Upon a Time or Resolution if you’re struggling this badly to sit through The Eleventh Hour. That’s all I feel obliged to say.

You have to account for the fact that I haven’t watched ANY NuWho for years, and going into it straight from watching a Pertwee story is a bit of a culture shock.
It’s makes you realise how bad it all is by comparison.
If I ever get as far as Twice Upon a Time, I’ll probably be be more acclimatised (or dumbed down?) into thinking Eleventh Hour is good.

I suppose there is that. I rather like it myself, though I recognise its flaws. Although the story and era comes nowhere close to the best of the Pertwee era (or most eras of the original series) by any stretch, although I do still hold a personal soft spot for it which does perhaps skew my judgement a little.

Re TheEleventh Hour ...

Overall i liked it but i thought the resolution of the story was weak / poor. After all the build up in the previous 30 or so minutes (which i enjoyed) the Doctor simply has a face to face with that eye thing, says who he is and that he is protecting the Earth and it runs away. Thats it. Nothing more. Its as if Moffat wrote it then got writers block and gave up.

The only problems I remember I had with The Eleventh Hour

1. The Doctor continuing to be shown as an utter dick to the female companion's boyfriend just for the sake of macho posturing (i.e. in front of Rory, saying "not him, the good-looking one")

2. The story wrong-foots us early that maybe Amy is a policewoman, and possibly the auntie too investigating the young girl Amelia's disappearance, and now the Doctor and her have to team up to find and save the little girl. I can't help think that would've been a more interesting story.

3. The more we learn about Prisoner Zero and the Atraxi, given that Prisoner Zero has existed in Amy's house for decades without ever harming her, that it's the Atraxi who are the main threat to Earth, and such fascist law enforcers can't really be taken at their word that Prisoner Zero is the criminal they claim, the more I wonder why the Doctor at no point questions whether maybe he should try to understand and work to protect Prisoner Zero rather than handing him over.

All things considered I thought it was okay in a luke-warm way, and it wasn't really until the Angels two-parter that I began to feel the (sadly short-lived) sense that the show had indeed been finally 'saved' from the RTD nonsense.

The Invasion (1968)

An extremely unpopular opinion, but I have always found The Invasion to be quite overrated. Its still a good story with a lot of terrific points such as Camfield's direction, the sewer scenes, Kevin Stoney, Don Harper's brilliant score and the regulars all on top form. But I've always found it dragging towards the last two parts and wished the Cybermen had more screen time.

Overall The Invasion is still a good story, but its never been a classic in my eyes. 3.5/5

Mercury wrote:The Invasion (1968)

An extremely unpopular opinion, but I have always found The Invasion to be quite overrated.  Its still a good story with a lot of terrific points such as Camfield's direction, the sewer scenes, Kevin Stoney, Don Harper's brilliant score and the regulars all on top form. But I've always found it dragging towards the last two parts and wished the Cybermen had more screen time.

Overall The Invasion is still a good story, but its never been a classic in my eyes. 3.5/5

I concur.
It has some iconic scenes with the Cybermen, (when they eventually turn up) but there's a lot of preamble.

stengos wrote:Re TheEleventh Hour ...

Overall i liked it but i thought the resolution of the story was weak / poor. After all the build up in the previous 30 or so minutes (which i enjoyed) the Doctor simply has a face to face with that eye thing, says who he is and that he is protecting the Earth and it runs away. Thats it. Nothing more. Its as if Moffat wrote it then got writers block and gave up.

Except... that's not what happens. That's what happens in Silence in the Libary. But the conclusion of the 11th Hour is the Doctor tricking Prisoner Zero into revealing itself. That's what saves the Earth, the other aliens are leaving anyway. That last bit is the Doctor just scolding them for having the cheek to threaten the entire planet just to get one prisoner.

I never got the impression the Doctor was dissing Rory for macho posturing reasons either. Maybe that's how Moffat wrote it but that's not how Smithy plays it. He just has no social filter whatsoever.

Mercury wrote:The Invasion (1968)


its never been a classic in my eyes. 3.5/5

And they call me strange!