Is Series 12 making Series 11 look good by comparison?

Or at least more acceptable?

I'll be honest, the only episode of Series 12 I've seen is Awful 55. But I've certainly heard enough about the Ruth retcon to know that this season has done some pretty severe damage to series lore.

And it has made me reflect on the fact that with Series 11, certain things about the show were still intact.... and infact the season was removed enough from Doctor Who to almost feel like it was irrelevant to the canon.

I think I could've almost lived with Series 11 in hindsight, if say the new series had ended on Resolution. It wouldn't have been a great finish, sure, but it would've at least put the brakes on the era getting worse.

I could see Series 11 as a bit of light, untaxing, easy viewing, of the kind someone might turn to if they want something a bit comfortingly vanilla.

Indeed, could Series 11 almost have seemed innocent enough, if it stopped there, and if not for what followed after in Series 12?

I think I’ll return to this thread and provide a more analytical response after tonight’s episode has aired, as that will affirm the truth behind the Ruth retcon and hopefully cause some semblance of the sycophancy amidst corners of fandom to dwindle. Prior to that, all I can say is that based on what I’ve seen, series 12 is not an improvement in any way.

Nothing could make Series 11 look "good" - that's far too generous a description. I agree that Series 12 is definitely much worse in terms of its damaging impact on the show's lore, though I would also say thay it's slightly more watchable due to Jodie having toned down the overacting a little, which is the nicest thing you'll ever hear me say about the Chibnall era.

I definitely could not have lived with Series 11, nor would I describe it as an easy, comforting, or untaxing experience. In fact, it angered me so much that my love of the original show took quite some time to recover. Principally because for the first time, we had a legitimately terrible (or at least catastrophically unsuitable) actor in the role of the Doctor, whose performance I found utterly unwatchable, far surpassing any complaints I had about Eccleston or Tennant. I stand by my conviction that Arachnids is the single most atrocious piece of storytelling I've ever had the displeasure to experience in any medium, for reasons I've already discussed ad nauseam over the past year. In terms of acting, dialogue, storytelling, pacing, politics (content and execution), and character development, Series 11 was beyond abysmal, without so much as a single redeeming quality. My relative lack of anger towards Series 12 is indicative only of how completely its predecessor managed to destroy my ability to care.

The Doctor Falls was the last point at which I would have been even remotely capable of living with NuWho, though I can hardly stand to watch anything after the 50th anniversary these days.

ClockworkOcean wrote:I definitely could not have lived with Series 11, nor would I describe it as an easy, comforting, or untaxing experience. In fact, it angered me so much that my love of the original show took quite some time to recover.

It might be that all my anger at the show had been spent over the JNT and RTD eras, and infact by the end of Moffat’s era I couldn’t even really care enough to get mad anymore. And so Series 11 was just watched in apathy with a few moments of mild interest.

Or maybe my expectations were too low to be disappointed anymore.

I'm waiting until tonight to answer this question.

I think everyone is

Tanmann wrote:It might be that all my anger at the show had been spent over the JNT and RTD eras, and infact by the end of Moffat’s era I couldn’t even really care enough to get mad anymore. And so Series 11 was just watched in apathy with a few moments of mild interest.

Or maybe my expectations were too low to be disappointed anymore.

That's pretty much how I'm feeling about Series 12. Maybe the difference is that I watched Series 10, which somewhat raised my expectations. It wasn't exactly great, but it was easily Moffat's best since Series 6 and did manage to get me interested again. Seeing some decent sci-fi storytelling and the first likeable Doctor/companion dynamic since the Ponds fooled me into thinking there might still be hope for the show.

ClockworkOcean wrote:

Tanmann wrote:It might be that all my anger at the show had been spent over the JNT and RTD eras, and infact by the end of Moffat’s era I couldn’t even really care enough to get mad anymore. And so Series 11 was just watched in apathy with a few moments of mild interest.

Or maybe my expectations were too low to be disappointed anymore.

That's pretty much how I'm feeling about Series 12. Maybe the difference is that I watched Series 10, which somewhat raised my expectations. It wasn't exactly great, but it was easily Moffat's best since Series 6 and did manage to get me interested again. Seeing some decent sci-fi storytelling and the first likeable Doctor/companion dynamic since the Ponds fooled me into thinking there might still be hope for the show.

I feel the same somewhat too, except that Missy had pretty much killed my enthusiasm for the show.

I don't care what anyone says, Missy was the point of no return. Even if you aren't a fan of the Master, even if you think he was a crap villain, it should have been very worrying to any fan that Moffat was able to completely throw EVERYTHING about a major icon of the show in the bin like that.

If he could do it to the Master, then no icon or constant was safe, and indeed no icon was after Missy. The Brig, the Daleks, Davros, the Doctors origins, regeneration, Rassilon, Hartnell, would all follow in the next two years.

(PS what the fuck is it about Missy that some people will not accept was shit? Even some of Jodie's critics! There was a guy on youtube who called me stupid for not seeing the depth of Missy's character "BANANA'S". He sneeringly said that he bets I like the shallow, stupid way the show is now. If people like him had listened to me in 2014 when that abomination he loves showed up, the show wouldn't be the way it is now!)

Now I actually want there to be a big ridiculous retcon like Pre Hartnell Doctors as it will just help to severe New Who from True Who.

burrunjor wrote:Now I actually want there to be a big ridiculous retcon like Pre Hartnell Doctors as it will just help to severe New Who from True Who.

Likewise. That’s precisely what I’m hoping happens tonight.

Bernard Marx wrote:

burrunjor wrote:Now I actually want there to be a big ridiculous retcon like Pre Hartnell Doctors as it will just help to severe New Who from True Who.

Likewise. That’s precisely what I’m hoping happens tonight.

GOODDD, FUCBMIG. I'M FUCKING DONE WITH- GOD FUCKING, NEWWHO DOESN'T EVEN FUDKING DESERVE TO SUCK MY COCK AT TJID FUCKINT POINT!!!!!! FUCK TUIS FUCKING CUNT ASS SHITE!!!!!

Well he did it that bastard destroyed canon Ruth is pre hartnell we reject this rubbish

No one's commenting on it yet? I'm amazed.

Well Tanman you are 100 percent right. Series 12 as unbelievable as it may seem, does make series 11 look good. Series 12 makes me miss Mofftwat! I'm not kidding. Even HE would not have dared fuck up the legacy of the show to that extent.

That was unquestionably the single worst episode of DW I have ever seen.

It actually surpasses Death in Heaven, or Arachnids in the UK, or any other episode.

To start with even without the canon destroying bollocks, the Cyber Lords were laughable. Its a shame that a comic Supremacy of the Cybermen did the same concept so much better.

Sacha Dawan was fucking awful as the Master. Almost as annoying as Missy. Furthermore Jodie was dreadful, and after all that fuss about the half human, half Cyberman being built up as the main villain, he just got killed in two seconds and the Master then took over.

Sigh the Master and the Cybermen working together again. How many fucking times are they going to use that combo? They're not even a good fit for each other.

Then again neither were being written as the villains they are supposed to be. The Cybermen now want to destroy all non organic life forms. Doesn't that make them the Daleks now?

As for what it did to continuity, that's it New Who is dead.

The Doctor is an alien from another world who was kidnapped by the first female traveller from Gallifrey. The Doctor was of course originally a small black girl.

The traveller took her back to Gallifrey, found she could regenerate and then experimented on her. From the Doctor they got the secret of regeneration and built Time Lord society.

The Doctor was programmed to work for the Time Lords, who sent him and her on missions to save the universe. There have been thousands of Doctors of both sexes. After each regeneration cycle is over, then they regress the Doctor back to a child, and wipe his/her memory of her first life.

Hartnell is therefore the 1639756493rd or something Doctor. He was also conditioned to go out and save the universe too. No explanation though for the TARDIS being a blue box.

We even found out the Doctors name. I can't remember, but yep that's pretty much everything about the character fucked now.

Well all I can say is this is where all change is good leads you.

burrunjor wrote:No one's commenting on it yet? I'm amazed.

Well Tanman you are 100 percent right. Series 12 as unbelievable as it may seem, does make series 11 look good. Series 12 makes me miss Mofftwat! I'm not kidding. Even HE would not have dared fuck up the legacy of the show to that extent.

That was unquestionably the single worst episode of DW I have ever seen.

It actually surpasses Death in Heaven, or Arachnids in the UK, or any other episode.

To start with even without the canon destroying bollocks, the Cyber Lords were laughable. Its a shame that a comic Supremacy of the Cybermen did the same concept so much better.

Sacha Dawan was fucking awful as the Master. Almost as annoying as Missy. Furthermore Jodie was dreadful, and after all that fuss about the half human, half Cyberman being built up as the main villain, he just got killed in two seconds and the Master then took over.

Sigh the Master and the Cybermen working together again. How many fucking times are they going to use that combo? They're not even a good fit for each other.

Then again neither were being written as the villains they are supposed to be. The Cybermen now want to destroy all non organic life forms. Doesn't that make them the Daleks now?

As for what it did to continuity, that's it New Who is dead.

The Doctor is an alien from another world who was kidnapped by the first female traveller from Gallifrey. The Doctor was of course originally a small black girl.

The traveller took her back to Gallifrey, found she could regenerate and then experimented on her. From the Doctor they got the secret of regeneration and built Time Lord society.

The Doctor was programmed to work for the Time Lords, who sent him and her on missions to save the universe. There have been thousands of Doctors of both sexes. After each regeneration cycle is over, then they regress the Doctor back to a child, and wipe his/her memory of her first life.

Hartnell is therefore the 1639756493rd or something Doctor. He was also conditioned to go out and save the universe too. No explanation though for the TARDIS being a blue box.

We even found out the Doctors name. I can't remember, but yep that's pretty much everything about the character fucked now.

Well all I can say is this is where all change is good leads you.

Completely agree. I can’t put that into words.

What complete and utter fucking indefensible fucking shite. That was so piss poor as to have made every prior shite NuWho episode look good.

Even that Facebook group I referred to seem to universally hate it.

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:

burrunjor wrote:Now I actually want there to be a big ridiculous retcon like Pre Hartnell Doctors as it will just help to severe New Who from True Who.

Likewise. That’s precisely what I’m hoping happens tonight.

GOODDD, FUCBMIG. I'M FUCKING DONE WITH- GOD FUCKING, NEWWHO DOESN'T EVEN FUDKING DESERVE TO SUCK MY COCK AT TJID FUCKINT POINT!!!!!! FUCK TUIS FUCKING CUNT ASS SHITE!!!!!

LMAO just saw this and Doctor 7's post after saying I'm surprised no one commented on it.

You are both right of course. TBH I am so disgusted with New Who, I am contemplating taking that gif of Osgood out of my signature. Obviously I have nothing against Ingrid LOL, who is a goddess, but I am so repulsed by it I don't think I can look at anything from New Who for quite a while.

Sigh and when you look at the gif below Ingrid. That was a revival of something that actually worked! This is where self loathing fanboyism leads you though. It should be a warning to every franchise.

burrunjor wrote:

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:

burrunjor wrote:Now I actually want there to be a big ridiculous retcon like Pre Hartnell Doctors as it will just help to severe New Who from True Who.

Likewise. That’s precisely what I’m hoping happens tonight.

GOODDD, FUCBMIG. I'M FUCKING DONE WITH- GOD FUCKING, NEWWHO DOESN'T EVEN FUDKING DESERVE TO SUCK MY COCK AT TJID FUCKINT POINT!!!!!! FUCK TUIS FUCKING CUNT ASS SHITE!!!!!

LMAO just saw this and Doctor 7's post after saying I'm surprised no one commented on it.

You are both right of course. TBH I am so disgusted with New Who, I am contemplating taking that gif of Osgood out of my signature. Obviously I have nothing against Ingrid LOL, who is a goddess, but I am so repulsed by it I don't think I can look at anything from New Who for quite a while.

Sigh and when you look at the gif below Ingrid. That was a revival of something that actually worked! This is where self loathing fanboyism leads you though. It should be a warning to every franchise.

This isn't even NewWho, this is something far far worse. Not even Moffat would have pulled this shite!!! I have to make an apology to every bad NewWho story!! Fuck this!!

lols You have gotta be kidding me.

Seriously. It's actually so stupid it's hilarious. Thank heavens I don't watch this trainwreck anymore.

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:

burrunjor wrote:

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:

burrunjor wrote:Now I actually want there to be a big ridiculous retcon like Pre Hartnell Doctors as it will just help to severe New Who from True Who.

Likewise. That’s precisely what I’m hoping happens tonight.

GOODDD, FUCBMIG. I'M FUCKING DONE WITH- GOD FUCKING, NEWWHO DOESN'T EVEN FUDKING DESERVE TO SUCK MY COCK AT TJID FUCKINT POINT!!!!!! FUCK TUIS FUCKING CUNT ASS SHITE!!!!!

LMAO just saw this and Doctor 7's post after saying I'm surprised no one commented on it.

You are both right of course. TBH I am so disgusted with New Who, I am contemplating taking that gif of Osgood out of my signature. Obviously I have nothing against Ingrid LOL, who is a goddess, but I am so repulsed by it I don't think I can look at anything from New Who for quite a while.

Sigh and when you look at the gif below Ingrid. That was a revival of something that actually worked! This is where self loathing fanboyism leads you though. It should be a warning to every franchise.

This isn't even NewWho, this is something far far worse. Not even Moffat would have pulled this shite!!! I have to make an apology to every bad NewWho story!! Fuck this!!

Agreed I actually feel bad at saying that Missy ruined it. I still stand by the if you go down the all change is good, this is where you end up, but even then, even Missy wouldn't have led to this.

Only good thing is my multiverse idea has to be canon now. It just depends where they cut it off. The next revival will either cut it off before Capaldi's death, or after McCoy.

Either way this will not remain canon. It can't.

I'm not even angry anymore though. Just delighted at being proved right.

iank wrote:lols You have gotta be kidding me.

Seriously. It's actually so stupid it's hilarious. Thank heavens I don't watch this trainwreck anymore.

It’s one of the worst pieces of TV I have ever seen, and easily outclasses any other NuWho story in that regard.

Jesus- Journey’s End is fucking Citizen Kane by comparison.

iank wrote:lols You have gotta be kidding me.

Seriously. It's actually so stupid it's hilarious. Thank heavens I don't watch this trainwreck anymore.

Yep there's now 10000000s of pre Hartnell Doctors, and the first one was a small black girl.

They were all programmed by the Time Lords to be agents to protect the universe. (Oh and the Time Lord who programmed them was non binary. She was dressed like a drag queen and called he.)

Does Chibnall not even realise how disrespectful he is being to Verity Lambert? Not to sound like an SJW but she was a woman, in a decade that didn't necessarily want women to create shows on their own, but she strived, and she created this show with Hartnell. She was the original, and was groundbreaking for the time. By Chinballs doing this retconning, he has now stolen the spotlight as the 'original creator', pushing Lambert underneath the bus. Chibnall, a typical white Male! That is just flat out disgusting!!!

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:Does Chibnall not even realise how disrespectful he is being to Verity Lambert? Not to sound like an SJW but she was a woman, in a decade that didn't necessarily want women to create shows on their own, but she strived, and she created this show with Hartnell. She was the original, and was groundbreaking for the time. By Chinballs doing this retconning, he has now stolen the spotlight as the 'original creator', pushing Lambert underneath the bus. Chibnall, a typical white Male! That is just flat out disgusting!!!

This!

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:

burrunjor wrote:

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:

burrunjor wrote:Now I actually want there to be a big ridiculous retcon like Pre Hartnell Doctors as it will just help to severe New Who from True Who.

Likewise. That’s precisely what I’m hoping happens tonight.

GOODDD, FUCBMIG. I'M FUCKING DONE WITH- GOD FUCKING, NEWWHO DOESN'T EVEN FUDKING DESERVE TO SUCK MY COCK AT TJID FUCKINT POINT!!!!!! FUCK TUIS FUCKING CUNT ASS SHITE!!!!!

LMAO just saw this and Doctor 7's post after saying I'm surprised no one commented on it.

You are both right of course. TBH I am so disgusted with New Who, I am contemplating taking that gif of Osgood out of my signature. Obviously I have nothing against Ingrid LOL, who is a goddess, but I am so repulsed by it I don't think I can look at anything from New Who for quite a while.

Sigh and when you look at the gif below Ingrid. That was a revival of something that actually worked! This is where self loathing fanboyism leads you though. It should be a warning to every franchise.

This isn't even NewWho, this is something far far worse. Not even Moffat would have pulled this shite!!! I have to make an apology to every bad NewWho story!! Fuck this!!

Yep. It was so toe curlingly bad I think that even on GB they will be slating it.

Its destroyed the entire character and purpose of the show. Bowlestrek can't be hard enough on it.

What are we going to call Hartnell? The 294736439764379463rd Doctor now?

Even Tennant era fans will be going fucking insane.

Like I said though my Multiverse idea will now have to be done. Or rather DC's multiverse idea that I pinched LOL. TBH though whilst I think New Who up until Capaldi's last season can be retconned as a new universe, I think Jodie's era can't fit as even an alternate universe.

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:Does Chibnall not even realise how disrespectful he is being to Verity Lambert? Not to sound like an SJW but she was a woman, in a decade that didn't necessarily want women to create shows on their own, but she strived, and she created this show with Hartnell. She was the original, and was groundbreaking for the time. By Chinballs doing this retconning, he has now stolen the spotlight as the 'original creator', pushing Lambert underneath the bus. Chibnall, a typical white Male! That is just flat out disgusting!!!

Verity Lambert was a victim of internalised misogyny.

That bastard arsehole hate chibnall with a passion

Bastard mother fucker cunt chibnall