Mark Gatiss as showrunner?

How do you think Gattiss would have been as showrunner for NuWho. Would he be a competent showrunner or as bad as the three we ended up getting?

Discuss.

From what I've seen of Chibnall, the only way is up; so he'd definitely be an improvement. But how much of one? He's still part of that whole collective. A complete reboot by someone completely unconnected would be preferable.

I think I would've really liked his era if he was in charge of the revival. It would've probably been back to a Hinchcliffe standard.

Ideally his era could've even started with something like An Adventure in Space & Time. A biography of the show's beginnings, maybe do a few more entries like it on the later eras, and maybe from there just go straight in-fiction and carry on.

Tanmann wrote:I think I would've really liked his era if he was in charge of the revival. It would've probably been back to a Hinchcliffe standard.

Ideally his era could've even started with something like An Adventure in Space & Time. A biography of the show's beginnings, maybe do a few more entries like it on the later eras, and maybe from there just go straight in-fiction and carry on.

I understand where you're coming from. It's tempting to think that things would've been significantly better. Especially considering that The Unquiet Dead was one of the best early episodes. But then there was rubbish like Victory of the Daleks, and Robot of Sherwood.
My cynical side says there's a lot of wishful thinking behind the idea of Gatiss being a good showrunner.

Truth be told, I'd think that he'd be great. He and Toby Whithouse were my choices to pick up after Moffat.
If there's one thing that Gatiss has over RTD and Moffat, I can tell that he has a sense of love and passion for the show, specifically 60s Who. It's clear in An Adventure in Space and Time that he respects how Verity Lambert created the show, and I believe that he can pull it off. Even his scripts like The Unquiet Dead, Night Terrors and The Crimson Horror fall more into Classic Who's style, so I think that he has the capabilities to pull it off.

Gatiss' nuwho would have been way more traditional than anything RTD or Moffat created.

Most of us here would have loved it, but knowing the plebeian tastes of the British public I doubt it would have lasted much beyond two seasons.

One thing's for sure he wouldn't have cast Eccleston in the Role. I can see him casting someone like David Warner for his Doctor with reece shearsmith as an Ian type companion maybe?

Lord Pertwee's Knob wrote:Most of us here would have loved it, but knowing the plebeian tastes of the British public I doubt it would have lasted much beyond two seasons.

I'd always liked to believe the mainstream audience were considerably smarter than RTD was determined to treat them, and could've still potentially appreciated a smarter revival if offered one.

But I think sadly you might be right. Even in the cinemas these days, viewers just get too easily bored and distracted by their own i-phones. It probably always takes the most cynical, flashy pandering just to hold their constant attention.

I dread the day they become immune even to that.

I'm not sure it would make much difference now. Moffat was dictated to by the upper echelons to pave the way for a female Doctor with the Missy bollocks. Gatiss would be under similar restrictions.
Maybe, as some have said, if he'd been in charge from the start of New Who we'd have got something a lot different. But with the rigid New Who formula set in stone by RTD, coupled with the political machinations from above... I can see why he wouldn't want it.
With Chinballs they got the perfect dickless yes man for their nonsense version of the show.

iank wrote:I'm not sure it would make much difference now. Moffat was dictated to by the upper echelons to pave the way for a female Doctor with the Missy bollocks. Gatiss would be under similar restrictions.
Maybe, as some have said, if he'd been in charge from the start of New Who we'd have got something a lot different. But with the rigid New Who formula set in stone by RTD, coupled with the political machinations from above... I can see why he wouldn't want it.
With Chinballs they got the perfect dickless yes man for their nonsense version of the show.

I'll say this for Gatiss, when he found out the BBC had cast an anachronistic black actor for the role of an 1880's British cavalry soldier, and then gave him an Interracial relationship (Which his fellow soldiers had no problem with) he did go to the production team to find out why.

He was basically told it was colour-blind casting, because the BBC mandated there should be "less white male faces" on screen, but at least he demanded to know why the actor had been cast.

Lord Pertwee's Knob wrote:
One thing's for sure he wouldn't have cast Eccleston in the Role. I can see him casting someone like David Warner for his Doctor with reece shearsmith as an Ian type companion maybe?

Gatiss claimed IN DWM before Fathead got the franchise that if he were running the show that he would've continued with McGann, so we'd have presumably got more of a continuation from ClassicWho and less of a spin off.

The only thing with Gatiss running the show is that once McGann left the part we'd have ended up with him as 9th Doctor!

Gatiss is more respectful to the Classic Series than Fathead, Muppet or Chinballs will ever be however.

Kind of pointless him being showrunner now, it's irredeemable the fucking mess those twats have made.

Rob Filth wrote:Gatiss claimed IN DWM before Fathead got the franchise that if he were running the show that he would've continued with McGann, so we'd have presumably got more of a continuation from ClassicWho and less of a spin off.

The sad thing is a Gatiss produced McGann series could have been a ratings hit AND a genuine continuation lifelong fans could have enjoyed.

I remember the universal excitement and joy when Night of the doctor dropped.
A spectacular success, but of course Moffat didn't understand the reason why (or more likely didn't want to understand the reason why) and put the acclaim down to people simply liking better produced minisodes rather than the real reason - a clamour for more McGann.

Lord Pertwee's Knob wrote:Gatiss' nuwho would have been way more traditional than anything RTD or Moffat created.

Most of us here would have loved it, but knowing the plebeian tastes of the British public I doubt it would have lasted much beyond two seasons.

One thing's for sure he wouldn't have cast Eccleston in the Role. I can see him casting someone like David Warner for his Doctor with reece shearsmith as an Ian type companion maybe?

No offence or anything, but I think this is a terrible attitude to have. In fact I'd argue that this helps the Fitzroy Crowd get away with it.

The single biggest problem with DW fans is that they lack confidence in it. I don't know why? This seems to come in two ways.

We have the pathetic, self loathing fans like Jon Blum and of course Mofftwat who are so desperate for the show not to be something arsehole comedians on panel shows rip on, or something that their snobby elitist friends laugh at that they will bend over backwards for any fad.

Then we have the fans like sadly it would seem most people on the Hive, who obviously don't give a shit what these cunts think, but still have the idea that DW would never work in the modern age.

I think that a faithful, proper version of True Who in the 21st century would have been a bigger success than New Who.

Okay it wouldn't have been quite the sensation that Tennant was, but it would have had a longer run.

New Who is NOT that big a success, this myth needs debunked. It hasn't been successful, in any market since 2013. That's now 7 years as a failing, niche show, longer than it had as a big series. Furthermore even before that its viewers dropped every year from 2008 on. And yes that's even taking IPlayer into account. (Tennant to Smith is only two years, and there is quite a significant drop between series 4 and 5.)

Its also had 5 hiatus' in under ten years.

Classic Who meanwhile outsells New Who every single year on DVD and Blue Ray.

See here.

http://www.officialcharts.com/chart-news/star-wars-game-of-thrones-and-paw-patrol-named-top-video-franchises-of-2017__21680/

Added to that Classic Who was not as dead as people make out in the 90s and 00s. I was born after it finished and I can attest that Classic Who stories were all big sellers on video and DVD, that you could still get a shit down of merchandise related to DW. (I had hundreds of DW toys in the 90s and 00s.)

Also in 2002 there was a nationwide poll for which old show people would most like to come back, and True Who topped the poll, (with the majority of voters being young uns.)

Also finally bare in mind that Rose was the highest rated episode of New Who until the start of series 4.

With all of this in mind, I think a proper sequel to Old Who could have worked. All it would need would be better effects, scary stories, and more fleshed out companions. Again though you could do that without wallowing in soap opera tedium. Also you wouldn't have to make the Doctor romantic, or an Alfie Moon clone.

Had they done that then I think it would be in a better, more secure place. As it was the New Who formula whilst a big sensation at first because of the romance, ultimately burnt out too quickly and has tried to keep itself afloat in desperate ways ever since.

We need to be confident in DW again. Also I'd just like to say that I don't share the pessimism that we will never get a proper sequel to True Who.

Again look at other franchises. Batman started out as a serious and dark series, before becoming ridiculously camp in the 60s. The camp Batman was far more popular with Adam West, but again when that burned out, new writers restored Batman to being a darker character again in the 70s. Why can't the same happen to DW?

In answer to the original post, I think Gatiss would have been a great producer. He isn't the best writer (not a terrible one either. I don't think any of his scripts are as bad as Mofftwat's or RTD's. At worst they can just be unoriginal.)

Remember however that the best producer isn't always the best writer. Philip Hinchliff, and Verity Lambert never wrote a single story, whilst the stories Barry Letts wrote were pretty crappy IMO. The Daemons is his best story, and even then its just kind of an inferior rip off of Quatermass and the Pit.

Gatiss seems to have a good understanding of the show. He likes sci fi and fantasy, draws inspiration from old horror movies, and sci fi pulp adventure era novels like John Carter. He also as many have pointed out, would have probably cast the likes of David Warner in the role too.

He'd have needed a good script editor to keep him in check of course, but overall I think he was probably the best of the Fitzroy Crowd, which is why he was smart enough to jump ship after Jodie came along.

Can someone give me a run down of who "the Fitzroy Crowd" are?

I always thought the tavern was just a meeting place for run-of-the-mill members of DWAS.
I never realized it was the birthplace of an insidious clique that went on to have an unhealthy control of the show until I started browsing the hive.

Were Gary Russell & Nick Briggs ever part of this crowd?

Lord Pertwee's Knob wrote:Can someone give me a run down of who "the Fitzroy Crowd" are?

I always thought the tavern was just a meeting place for run-of-the-mill members of DWAS.
I never realized it was the birthplace of an insidious clique that went on to have an unhealthy control of the show until I started browsing the hive.

Were Gary Russell & Nick Briggs ever part of this crowd?

Yes Gary Russell and Nick Briggs were.

Basically the Fitzroy Pub was where RTD, Mofftwat, Cornell, Dick Briggs, Robert Shearman, Gary Russell, Mark Gatiss, all gathered and got to know each other in the 80s and 90s and their cliquey mindset began.

There was a smug article a bit back where Cornell was boasting about how when they used to talk about DW in the Fitzroy and how they'd fix it, they could have never guessed it would be so big.

I'll try and find it.

It must look funny to people outside of this forum to see us ranting about a random pub LOL.

Nick Briggs I think *did* have a good idea of how to fix the franchise, before he got too much Russell T Davies in his eyes.

burrunjor wrote: RTD, Mofftwat, Cornell, Dick Briggs, Robert Shearman, Gary Russell, Mark Gatiss

Blimey! Apart from Shearman who I personally have no problem with, that is basically a list of people I've despised for almost 20 years

Now it all makes sense. It would be hard to find a bigger group of smug tossers and doctor who grifters.

From Tat Wood's About Time: Volume 6 (2007)

Tat Wood wrote:"Before the War, the Tavern was where George Orwell and Dylan Thomas would hang out and complain that people kept pestering them for autographs. Thomas stopped coming when Aleister Crowley became a regular. For a large chunk of its history, the Tavern was the heart of Fitzrovia- and therefore the focus of the capital's cultural life.

Since 1984, it's been adopted by Doctor Who fans but not in such numbers as to stop the place being swamped with students and ghastly media types. At designated times of the year, the ritual has been for us to walk into a jam-packed pub and decide, "nobody's here yet", then wait to spot a familiar face. About half of these faces are people you'd wanted to talk to for ages, the others are people you'd like to avoid if possible. Later, you'll be introduced to someone you've been chatting to online for years, who was actually the first person you saw when you walked in. If you're lucky, you can chat to the writers of the new series and the authors of your favourite spin-off books. If not, you can have Nev Fountain tell you how funny he is.

Mostly though, you have access to a vast reservoir of information from all walks of life, including barristers and medics (increasingly useful as we "classic" series fans get older). By 9.00 pm, the Not-We thin out and we get a chance to sit down. (Usually, the fans start forming breakaway cells on the street outside, so if you prefer, you can spend the entire night without going in.) By this time, anyone who's been wearing a long stripey scarf or an anorak has drifted away, because everyone's ignored them and denied any knowledge of being "those Doctor Who people" when asked by journalists or geeks." As we keep saying, fandom is an ice-breaker, but not the sole reason we hang out together afterwards. Until recently, one would accept cheaply-made freebie fanzines as the only mention of the series permitted, whilst we meet to talk about our lives, interests and problems and hire each other to write or produce some commercial gubbins. (About Time began as a chat at the Tavern, as did Dreamwatch and Big Finish.)

The absolute height of the Tavern was, paradoxically, when the series ended in 1989 and we found we liked having our own agenda more now there were no distractions like new episodes. The lowest ebb was in 1995 to 1996, as the impending TV Movie killed first DWM as it had been, then Virgin's New Adventures, and then a lot of the fun of being fans of a forgotten show. Now, we all bitch about each other's spin-off projects, gripe about how bad Torchwood is and spit in the pints we buy Nev Fountain.

Then, come closing time, we run the gauntlet of the truculent Australian Oompa-Loompas hired as bar-staff and either go home, or to each other's homes, or to exciting night-spots we can't really afford. If, at the latter, we meet anyone we know from the Tavern, we pretend not to recognise each other."

Tanmann wrote:From Tat Wood's About Time: Volume 6 (2007)

Tat Wood wrote:"Before the War, the Tavern was where George Orwell and Dylan Thomas would hang out and complain that people kept pestering them for autographs. Thomas stopped coming when Aleister Crowley became a regular. For a large chunk of its history, the Tavern was the heart of Fitzrovia- and therefore the focus of the capital's cultural life.

Since 1984, it's been adopted by Doctor Who fans but not in such numbers as to stop the place being swamped with students and ghastly media types. At designated times of the year, the ritual has been for us to walk into a jam-packed pub and decide, "nobody's here yet", then wait to spot a familiar face. About half of these faces are people you'd wanted to talk to for ages, the others are people you'd like to avoid if possible. Later, you'll be introduced to someone you've been chatting to online for years, who was actually the first person you saw when you walked in. If you're lucky, you can chat to the writers of the new series and the authors of your favourite spin-off books. If not, you can have Nev Fountain tell you how funny he is.

Mostly though, you have access to a vast reservoir of information from all walks of life, including barristers and medics (increasingly useful as we "classic" series fans get older). By 9.00 pm, the Not-We thin out and we get a chance to sit down. (Usually, the fans start forming breakaway cells on the street outside, so if you prefer, you can spend the entire night without going in.) By this time, anyone who's been wearing a long stripey scarf or an anorak has drifted away, because everyone's ignored them and denied any knowledge of being "those Doctor Who people" when asked by journalists or geeks." As we keep saying, fandom is an ice-breaker, but not the sole reason we hang out together afterwards. Until recently, one would accept cheaply-made freebie fanzines as the only mention of the series permitted, whilst we meet to talk about our lives, interests and problems and hire each other to write or produce some commercial gubbins. (About Time began as a chat at the Tavern, as did Dreamwatch and Big Finish.)

The absolute height of the Tavern was, paradoxically, when the series ended in 1989 and we found we liked having our own agenda more now there were no distractions like new episodes. The lowest ebb was in 1995 to 1996, as the impending TV Movie killed first DWM as it had been, then Virgin's New Adventures, and then a lot of the fun of being fans of a forgotten show. Now, we all bitch about each other's spin-off projects, gripe about how bad Torchwood is and spit in the pints we buy Nev Fountain.

Then, come closing time, we run the gauntlet of the truculent Australian Oompa-Loompas hired as bar-staff and either go home, or to each other's homes, or to exciting night-spots we can't really afford. If, at the latter, we meet anyone we know from the Tavern, we pretend not to recognise each other."

Wankers!

Pretty much.  

It's like they've all got some Tyler Durdan-complex.

Lord Pertwee's Knob wrote:

burrunjor wrote: RTD, Mofftwat, Cornell, Dick Briggs, Robert Shearman, Gary Russell, Mark Gatiss

Blimey! Apart from Shearman who I personally have no problem with, that is basically a list of people I've despised for almost 20 years

Now it all makes sense. It would be hard to find a bigger group of smug tossers and doctor who grifters.

I feel exactly the same way. Shearman and Gatiss excluded, and Briggs as Tanman said before his sell out days. They are collectively, without doubt the single worst thing ever to happen to Doctor Who.

Sorry if I sounded too aggressive, I just don't like the lack of confidence people have in DW. Obviously those who think, just leave it in the past don't bother me as such. I would have been fine with DW never coming back. It had a great run of 26 years, 7 brilliant leads. I'm not greedy. It has to finish some time.

Still I do think that we've all been led to believe that the show has no hope of succeeding in modern day by the Fitzroy Crowd. Its all we've ever heard or seen from people in the media, because it justifies New Who. (Tanman will back me up about how awful people were about that on the Doctor Who IMDB page.)

I firmly believe you can revive any old franchise, as long as you update it in practical ways.

Look at Godzilla, its the shinning example. The 98 Godzilla is New Who. It throws everything about the character out on the grounds that it was too stupid, like his atomic breath, indestructability etc. It was the same arguments about "You couldn't have these things in a proper serious movie, don't be a saddo holding on to tradition." The difference is Godzilla fans weren't self loathers like Jon Blum and IMO that saved the Godzilla franchise.

The 2014 Godzilla was basically a modern version of the Toho movies. Godzilla looked like the Big G, he had atomic breath, fought other monsters, they even stuck in things like people revering him as a hero, and it all worked.

All the 2014 Godzilla did was update it in a practical way, like making Godzilla look less silly, making the fights less cartoony, showing the actual effects of monsters on the cities etc, but it still kept the essentials of Godzilla.

A proper New DW would just be the same, no rubbery monsters, maybe a romance between the companions (but NOT the Doctor,) but still DW about fighting monsters, travelling through space, the Doctor as still the Doctor (which rules out any female Doctors.) etc

I do think we will go back the way to a more updated True Who style. Call me optimistic, but its happened before with so many franchises, Batman, Godzilla, Dan Dare etc.

I long for the day we have New Who retconned into another universe, and we have a scene where the real Master with a goatee and black suit shrinks Pissy Missy and steps on her, saying "I should have known kinky Poppins wasn't up to much."

burrunjor wrote:Tanman will back me up about how awful people were about that on the Doctor Who IMDB page.

Well, that 'paul beardsley' was a snide little twat, I remember him.
I also remember MaverickAl was one of the most rabid Moffat fans I've ever come across.