Andrew Cartmel: "Timeless Child depletes the mystery of Doctor Who"

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/andrew-cartmel-thinks-timeless-child-depletes-the-mystery-of-doctor-who-93918.htm

Classic era script editor, Andrew Cartmel, has criticised “The Timeless Children” canon changes, arguing he believes it “depletes the mystery” of Doctor Who.

Speaking on The Legend of the Traveling TARDIS Radio Show, Cartmel said: “I think as soon as we delve into the minutiae, into the fine detail, of what Chibnall’s done… Chibnall’s obviously done a reset on it, which is great, but as soon as you start to specify that reset you’re back in the same old problem that you’re explaining too much. You just want to say ‘what you thought you knew was going on you didn’t, it’s much more than that’, and leave it there.”

As classic fans will recall, Cartmel himself planned to implement a backstory for the Doctor during his time on the show, affectionately known today as the “Cartmel Masterplan”. However, Cartmel wanted to only tease the Doctor’s background, retaining the mystery. He thinks “The Timeless Children” is “too detailed”.

He elaborated: “All I wanted to do [with the “Cartmel Masterplan”] is throw the Doctor back into shadow again and just give hints of what was going on. And [with “The Timeless Children”] there’s a lot of detail in specifics, which is the last thing you want. Number one: it depletes the mystery, and number two: that was the chief failing of the Moffat era.

I always knew Cartmel is great

Ha ha.

Cartmel didn't kill himself.

Just calling it now, in case.

Well, awright. Go Andy.    That's one for the team. Somehow, despite the wailing apologists on GB, I don't think the "Chibnall Masterplan" is becoming "a thing" any time soon...

TheCuomoDoctor wrote:Cartmel didn't kill himself.

Just calling it now, in case

We know Bidmead, is still alive, right? Or is he is Siberia?

I'm wishing he had commissioned Lungbarrow now, so it would be TV canon.

Chibnall's retcon would've been pretty much impossible then.

(not that that would've necessarily stopped him, though )

Glad to finally see this "All change is good, DW has no canon" crap being rejected by not only the fans, but the people involved in the original.

We've seen too many like Colin Baker, Katy Manning etc, kissing up to the true toxic side of fandom because they think they have a new hip, millenial fanbase.

I wonder what that wanker Culfy will be saying on GB, (assuming he's not whining about getting someone else he disagrees with banned.)

Jon Blum how is he going to square the script editor of one of his favourite eras  backing up everything that I said someone making the show should do?

And he has. Cartmel's basically said not to focus too much on rewriting the Doctors past for the sake of it, talk with previous writers, have a healthy respect for the past, not think the show is just yours etc. All things that Jon Blum thinks are just for anoraks?

(PS as a result despite what shallow, jump on the bandwagon panel show cunts like Jimmy Carr and the BBC say, Cartmel's era didn't kill the show and is still fondly remembered 30 years on, whilst Chibbers has driven away fucking Elizabeth Sandifier of all people. Seriously if a trans woman whose written thousands of articles about DW and who thinks the most important thing is representation won't watch your version of DW starring what's meant to be a transexual version of the Doctor, how bad must you have fucked up?)

UncleDeadly wrote:Well, awright. Go Andy.  cheers  That's one for the team. Somehow, despite the wailing apologists on GB, I don't think the "Chibnall Masterplan" is becoming "a thing" any time soon...

YOU FUCKING RACIST, HOMOPHOBIC, SEXIST SCUMBAG WHO IS SEXUALLY INTIMIDATED BY JODIE WHITTAKER, I HOPE YOU DIE!!!! BEFORE EVIL, SICK CUNTS LIKE YOU CAME ALONG THIS FANDOM WAS A NICE PLACE!

Don't you see what Andrew Cartmel said is exactly the same as that time a guy said the Deadly Assassin wasn't very good back in the 70s. Yeah because he was wrong about that, then that means any and all criticism of DW is wrong too.

No it's not unpopular because nowadays they measure the viewers over a 3 month period and in those figures DW has reached 5 million, which if you will allow me to check my notes is the figure it got for a random episode in Tom Baker's time so that means that Tom Baker was just as unpopular as Jodie.

Oh yes Andrew Cartmel REALLY cares about continuity. Watch Greatest Show in The Galaxy, and you'll see in one scene Ace is wearing a different jacket to the one she had on in the scene before.

That shows he didn't actually care about continuity as a small mistake like that is definitely comparable to something that's driven lifelong fans away in droves.

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh what's a masterplan.

Jon Pertwee clearly wanted to fuck Delgado's brains out because he said that he was looking forward to fighting him at the end of Terror of the Autons.

We need to show women more respect, except if they're ugly, junkie, skanky, anorexic whores. Excuse me while I go make a well known MALE drug addict, womanizer my avatar.

That's pretty much how they'd argue with you on Gallifrey Base, before getting you banned and following you around on other forums like a stalker.

Cheers Burrunjor

burrunjor wrote:Glad to finally see this "All change is good, DW has no canon" crap being rejected by not only the fans, but the people involved in the original.

I personally think DW hasn't got canon but it means something completely else than Chibnall's acolytes think - it means everything can be removed more easily than in other shows, therefore with more sense. In other programs it would be hard to clean the mess that is after series 12. But in DW next showrunner can introduce some cosmic event (second Time War?) that'll erase "Timeless Children" to all hells. Other shows would have to ignore the mess, "ours" - doesn't have, cuz it has better devices.

Infinitic wrote:

burrunjor wrote:Glad to finally see this "All change is good, DW has no canon" crap being rejected by not only the fans, but the people involved in the original.

I personally think DW hasn't got canon but it means something completely else than Chibnall's acolytes think - it means everything can be removed more easily than in other shows, therefore with more sense. In other programs it would be hard to clean the mess that is after series 12. But in DW next showrunner can introduce some cosmic event (second Time War?) that'll erase "Timeless Children" to all hells. Other shows would have to ignore the mess, "ours" - doesn't have, cuz it has better devices.

Sorry but I disagree.

I dislike the idea that time can be rewritten. It undermines the drama and feels too convenient. "The Doctor can't change history when it's Adric's death because? But he can change events like erasing the end of the Time War?

For me it should be a simple straight forward thing of you MAKE your own history, you don't change it.

Look at it this way. If I were to go back and help the allies defeat the Nazis then I would be creating the future I was born in so time would flow perfectly.

If I went back and helped the Nazis win however (let's suppose what they saw about me on GB is true LOL) I would be changing history and possibly erasing myself from existence.

That would create a paradox which is different.

That timeline would be unstable in various ways. Perhaps it would be caught in a time loop, perhaps time would break down etc.

That way you can still have the threat of "if the Doctor doesn't save the earth he can't just go back and save it." because if he fails his own history changes, or he will be erased from history.

They touched on this in Pyramdis fo Mars, that if he didn't save the earth in the 1900s then the earth would still eb destroyed and the future he and Sarah come from would be erased, but he made the history his earlier selves had lived through (coming to a non destroyed earth in the 20th century) by foiling Sutekh in the 1900s.

Obviously there are exceptions to this. Perhaps some time lords have access to equipment that can change history, but the new timelines they create are more unstable, so they Doctors never considered using it.

Fixed points meanwhile always seemed too lazy to me, and didn't make a bit of sense. How can the Doctors death in 2011 be a fixed point, yet the earth being destroyed in an atomic war in the 1980s in The Cold War be a moment in flux?

If the earth is destroyed in the 1980s then the Doctor being shot sure as hell won't happen. (For one thing Amy and Rory will be dead.)

It's too convenient.

IMO these should always be the rules of time travel, unless it's a one off. It's okay in Terminator to have it that the robot can change the past, because it's a one way trip so you don't have to ask "why doesn't he just go back."

In other thngs however you have to give a proper reason as to why time can't be changed.

Sadly it seems based on New Who, The Arroweverse and worst of all the recent Avengers movie, nobody gives a fuck about that when writing time travel stories anymore.

That latest Avengers movie was incredibly lazy the way they killed Thanos in the past, yet the future he made still happened?

Not to mention that Time Travel is the easiest way to hide behind creative cowardice when attempting to reverse or undo previous plot threads. This comes second to conveniently introducing the concept of cloning into your series cough Rise of Skywalker.

It establishes a very dangerous precent in that there can be virtually no stakes for the character while also challenging the very fabric of the characters and their history. Even RTD explored why the Doctor couldn't just go back and prevent the Time War from happening.

Everything Chibnall has done since potentially puts everything up for reversal while also making the Thirteenth incarnation of this character the most morally ambiguous in a way that is grossly inconsistent with her own values as a Timelord. What? Adelaide from Waters of Mars wasn't worth saving? Didn't feel some issues with the Doctor interfering with a fixed moment in Earth's history?

This show is done.

burrunjor wrote:
"The Doctor can't change history when it's Adric's death because?

I'd say if he could, he would see himself on the monitor doing it. It's like the loop declaring what can be changed and what cannot be.

TheCumoDoctor wrote:This show is done.

Why? Chibnall is not the first hack in this show and definitely not the last, unfortunately. But between one moron and the second, I hope there'll be someone good.

It's insult after insult to the point that continuity and the identity of the Doctor (specifically, the mystery of his origins) has left little room to move.

TheCuomoDoctor wrote:It's insult after insult to the point that continuity and the identity of the Doctor (specifically, the mystery of his origins) has left little room to move.

True, but on the other hand nobody remembers "I'm half human, from my mum's side". There is always hope

Infinitic wrote:

TheCuomoDoctor wrote:It's insult after insult to the point that continuity and the identity of the Doctor (specifically, the mystery of his origins) has left little room to move.

True, but on the other hand nobody remembers "I'm half human, from my mum's side". There is always hope

The thing is with the half-human line is that it's only 'mentioned' by the Doctor as opposed to it being confirmed or shown to the audience. For all we know, he was talking out of his arse to fool that security guard. It was only an idea, rather than a confirmation and I'm personally fine with it, as opposed to Looms or The Timeless Children.
Plus, it did give me a good chuckle when they repeated the line again in a different manner in the EDA Books:
'I'm half stupid, on my mother's side'

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:
The thing is with the half-human line is that it's only 'mentioned' by the Doctor as opposed to it being confirmed or shown to the audience. For all we know, he was talking out of his arse to fool that security guard. It was only an idea, rather than a confirmation

Yes and no, the Master also said "The Doctor is half-human" in the movie.