Series 11

NuWho should have just ended with Matt Smith's Doctor during the 2013 Christmas Special. He was already at the end of his regeneration cycle anyway, and having the Doctor die while defending the helpless residents of Trenzalore would have been a somewhat diginifed way to end the show.

Instead they kept it going by having the Time Lords send glowing fairy dust from out of the sky (even though they were supposed to be frozen in time) to give the Doctor a new regeneration cycle, which would then lead into easily the worst era of NuWho by far.

Of course, he was only at the end of his regeneration cycle because they retconned in John Hurt's Faketor and then retconned Tennant's non-regeneration in Journey's End to count solely because Moffat was so egotistical he wanted to deal with the limit himself.

The whole regeneration limit was done with such graceless ineptitude. If it ever became relevant they could have simply said it was imposed by the Time Lords and it died with them.

Well it was imposed by the Time Lords because they learned that Time Lords went a bit batty after a certain number. I can’t remember if that came from Big Finish or Novels. (MIGHT have been an off-hand comment in the Classic series too.) Point is: Moffat screwed everything up for his egotistical fangasism. And @TheTimeTraveller is right, easy enough to have retconned it In other ways that actually make sense from an historical/storyline POV. (Wait, Moffat doesn’t understand either of those things.)

TBH I would have just finished the show when he reached his 13th life.

I wouldn't have fucked around with the show of course the way the new who crowd did. The way they burned through regenerations was shameful.

They didn't use McGann, even though he was willing, so they wasted that version. They drove Eccelston out with all their shit after a year, so 9 was basically not a full Doctor either. Even Tennant, they wasted a year of him, by taking a pointless break.

For 11 meanwhile similarly we were cheated out of a full year of Matt Smith because of another pointless break, Capaldi too.

Finally as Ian pointed out they burned through ANOTHER regeneration with John Hurt who they basically used for 1 episode and the non Tennant regeneration.

Had it been a producer like Barry Letts who was able to keep the same guy for 5 years then 8-13 could easily have taken longer than 1-7 did.

By that point I say just finish it. Its had a good run and as long as you didn't fuck it up, like casting a female Doctor, a female Master, a Cyber Brig then that's that. The original 13 doctors are a thing, and then if the franchise wants to continue its a remake. Who cares if they muck it up in a remake? Its not connected to the original. Let them have all the kissy Masters, female Doctors, and Cyber Brigs they want.

Also yes the way they resolved it was shit. It was like a Mario game. The Doctor is on his last life, so the time lords send him a gold star and he goes all twinkly and indestructable, and so when he kills enough Dalek guys he gets 13 one ups.

Perpetual adolescent fan fiction authors, which is who form the producer cabal, have a fear of growing old, being adult and generally are shirkers of real responsibility. The habit of fiction is too strong in them.

Thus this endless rehashing and attempt to keep the Doctor regenerated instead of having him go out in one final blaze of glory.

Letting the character pop his clogs at #13 - a proper #13 after good long turns for each of them, would not in any way prevent the show coming back.

In fact the first mystery would be how the central character returned. The real reason would be as with Sherlock Holmes he was far too popular to stay dead, but within the story there could be any number of plausible explanations. Realism after all is simply believability plus fiction, it isn't some sort of nerdy continuity bound ogre to prevent the plot advancing. Except of course, for the fan fiction crowd. There inability to distinguish between real and realistic is one of their two key features. The other of course is self insertion (pun intended) which begets the regrettable River Sue, Missy Sue, Clara Sue and even for RTD's homoerotic fantasies about the Doctor, Rose Sue.

Excellent additional points by both of you and they remind me of another major flaw/failure of NuWho: consequences for your actions.

When Adric sacrificed himself and died, the Fifth Doctor reacted poorly to that and a mild rift was created within Team TARDIS because of it.

I can’t think of one single consequence that any companion has faced for their poor choices. And while RTD did an okay job with the Doctor facing consequences (particularly for “Waters of Mars”, even if I felt it could have been pushed farther), Moffat basically had no consequences ever. And any time he had it, it was undone/underminded by things he did in later episodes, so it didn’t matter.

And Series 11 looks the worst yet, especially the more and more it seems to be detaching itself from everything Who that has gone before.

Regardless of thoughts and opinions about various aspects of NuWho, over-all and big picture, it still had elements that made it recognisably Who. I have seen nothing - other than slapping the DW logo on it that - that makes S11 “Who”. Don’t get me started on the fact that they are rebranding the ENTIRE Who franchise with that logo. I think they know Chib has made a royal mess of things and they think if they can visually tell us everything is linked by using that logo, we’ll believe it. (Won’t work on me.)

tardis wrote:Don’t get me started on the fact that they are rebranding the ENTIRE Who franchise with that logo. I think they know Chib has made a royal mess of things and they think if they can visually tell us everything is linked by using that logo, we’ll believe it. (Won’t work on me.)

Chibnall is a foot soldier. The rebranding of all things Who is a sinister attempt at Orwellian rewriting of history, blurring the orginal show with both NuWho and the female spinoff to imply they're all the same thing, which qualitatively and ideologically they are not.

I wonder if Sarah Jane Adventures will also be glommed into the collective? Probably.

And all this from the bureaucrats who put in the "history is a whitewash" line as they scratched people's faces off vodka bottles.

TheTimeTraveller wrote:The whole regeneration limit was done with such graceless ineptitude. If it ever became relevant they could have simply said it was imposed by the Time Lords and it died with them.

From what I remember (or think I remember) from a Steven Moffat interview was that everyone (or at least enough people) remembered the regeneration limit even after it had first been mentioned decades before.

I think he said you can't choose which parts of the lore stick with the fanbase but apparently this was one of them, so they said they were in the position of doing *something* to acknowledge it as opposed to just avoiding the topic (a la the Doctor is half-human ... at least up to now) ...

More lies and hypocrisy from Moffat. Loads of people fondly remembered the Rani and Romana, and he didn't bring either of them back, choosing instead the tranny panto dame Missy to the disadvantage of all.
You cant choose what sticks in fan's minds, eh?

Well, the difference there is whether a character appears or not is an option but you're inevitably going to hit that regeneration limit at some point (also, in fairness, it's as I think I remember what I thought I saw - just adding that in case I remembered things fundamentally wrong).

It sounds very like something Moffat would say, even if the phrasing is wrong. He was a curious show runner/ficwriter; constantanly picking and choosing between aspects of canon and rewriting even his own established canon if he got caught in a corner. And he did it with every show he was involved with from COUPLING to SHERLOCK to DOCTOR WHO. I was one of the few people who said “well that was a stupid move” when he was announced as showrunner everyone told me to give him a chance. And I did. And he not only ruined Doctor Who but nearly ruined Matt Smiths career with his terrible writing and I would say tanked the possibility of Capaldis later career, but we’ll see as DAVID COPPERFIELD might save that.

DeadManRising wrote:NuWho should have just ended with Matt Smith's Doctor during the 2013 Christmas Special

Hell, it could have just ended with Day of the Doctor...far more upbeat, gives the Doc a quest and creates a perfect jumping-on point creatively in case you ever wanted to bring it back (search for Gallifrey), it even has a pretty good series ending speech.

Zarius wrote:

DeadManRising wrote:NuWho should have just ended with Matt Smith's Doctor during the 2013 Christmas Special

Hell, it could have just ended with Day of the Doctor...far more upbeat, gives the Doc a quest and creates a perfect jumping-on point creatively in case you ever wanted to bring it back (search for Gallifrey), it even has a pretty good series ending speech.

That's a very good idea! And you're right, it would be (for once) a very upbeat ending.
Too much of current Who for the last several years has had the sloppy storytelling of fan fiction combined with these dismal downer endings which are jarring an inappropriate in a series where there are zero consequences.

Went looking for an article about the new sonic and ended up finding this, so thanks for that forum.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-07-30/doctor-who-christopher-eccleston-matt-smith-peter-capaldi-meet-hug-london-film-comic-con/

shan164 wrote:Went looking for an article about the new sonic and ended up finding this, so thanks for that forum.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-07-30/doctor-who-christopher-eccleston-matt-smith-peter-capaldi-meet-hug-london-film-comic-con/

How much were they charging fans to be allowed to look at them doing that?
Their grifting at 'Cons is dependent on goodwill, and they've smoked that goodwill like a blunt.

Look, I just thought it was nice that the thing that many of them have said over the years which is that once you're the Doctor, you're the member of a special club seemed to be holding. Remember, the article itself said Christopher Eccleston hasn't attended one of these before, so I doubt he's actively out there hunting down convention money.

shan164 wrote:Look, I just thought it was nice that the thing that many of them have said over the years which is that once you're the Doctor, you're the member of a special club seemed to be holding. Remember, the article itself said Christopher Eccleston hasn't attended one of these before, so I doubt he's actively out there hunting down convention money.

You must have missed the controversy over how much Eccleston was charging for his autograph at this carnival of oddities.

I've decided to follow Rob Filth's lead and unfriend from various DW facebook groups as all I do is end up arguing with stupid DW fans who clearly never liked the show and its too time consuming. Plus what's the point? I mean the show is lost to us now anyway. Its not like it can be saved?

Still thought I'd share this little gem from one I just unfriended.



You see why I say that anyone who says they like Missy is not a true fan. I will always stand 100 percent by that. Seriously want to show the world you're either a spineless self loathing fanboy, or a total fucking sell out, just say "I don't think Missy was an abomination."

Its hilarious to think that these two characters here



Could end up as the inspiration behind some sexy lesbian art. Its surreal. I feel like the whole world has gone mad LOL and I'm the only sane person left (apart from the people here.)

She's a woman now so she must want to bonk every other woman on the show.

She has her vibrator BIGOTS and is a stronk inypendant wymyn CIS SCUM who are you to judge her HATER
Lesbianism is beautiful and natural
(which is why like male homosexuality they have to catch children as young as possible before they get "programmed" to be heterosexual)
All this propaganda about sexual deviancy can't get around the fact that homosexuals are too mentally unstable to have nonviolent long term monogamous relationships and that lesbians are 60 times more physicall violent than normal people in equivalent relationships.
But please, BBC, keep the lipstick lesbianism enabling going. It will play terrifically well to your pet islamics and I bet it will be a strong ratings winner oop north too.

burrunjor wrote:I feel like the whole world has gone mad LOL and I'm the only sane person left

I've felt that way for quite some time...

TheTimeTraveller wrote:All this propaganda about sexual deviancy can't get around the fact that homosexuals are too mentally unstable to have nonviolent long term monogamous relationships.

Congratulations on making me facepalm so hard that it actually hurt.

Congratulations on making me facepalm so hard that it actually hurt.

Agreed. Just to be clear I do NOT have a problem with homosexual or lesbian relationships or people or characters on tv. Had no problem with Tara and Willow for instance. Love Amber Benson. She would have made a pretty good Romana.

My objection to the female Doctor and to pissy, kissy, missy have always been for creative reasons (which have well been explored by now so I won't repeat them) because I feel its pandering to a group of intolerant bullies who slandere the makers of the show (ala Mary Whitehouse), because of the anti men bigotry behind it, and just because of how silly it is that Jon Pertwee and Roger Delgado could inspire erotic lesbian art

If that last sentence alone doesn't convince someone that the show is no longer DW in any way shape or form then I don't know what will!

Relax, burrunjor. No one here is accusing you of being homophobic.

TheTimeTraveller: I'm related to two Gay people and they both seem mentally fine to me. I believe you have a warped mindset.