Which Who Stories Have you seen lately?

You're positively sane in comparison to some.

I watched the rest of The Eleventh Hour.
Once the OTT post-regeneration whackiness is out of the way, it does pan out to be one of the less offensive stories from the NuWho canon.
Watching it when it was broadcast, I think the relief from Tennant's 'zany' on overdrive was a big factor in feeling positive towards Smith's more toned down feel that he brought to his Doctor. It's only when you take a long break from NuWho and re-watch after only watching the classic series for a while, that you realise that it's still basically a caricature, and nothing is ever going to change that. Certainly not Steven Moffat.
Yes, Smith is less annoying than Tennant, but the Doctor is still reduced to being a swaggering tit who can barely get through a scene without some inane joke and a level of smugness that obliterates any credible sense of threat from whatever he faces, no matter how powerful and intimidating it's supposed to be.
Yes, the classic series Doctors, particularly Tom, sometimes took this approach, but it wasn't impregnated into the Doctor's attitude seemingly at DNA level. That's the difference between classic and NuWho. Sometimes the Doctor could be extremely cavalier in his attitude, but it was usually counterbalanced with some gravitas, and very often a good dose of humility. The classic Doctors displayed many facets, whereas this enlarged status of the Doctor in the universe as some sort of quasi-super hero protector of the Earth (and/or universe) that hint towards a level of Godhood, doesn't enhance the character of the Doctor, it actually reduces it in my opinion to something a bit closer to a cypher.
It doesn't matter how well Smith manages to deal with this; it's the way the character and the program as a whole is being written and re-conceived.
All that being said, there are far worse stories than The Eleventh Hour. The fact that I managed to get through the rest of it (first 10 minutes aside) says something.  It's not that much of a story in itself. but I can forgive that because it's obviously a set up for things to come.
And it was terribly nice to see Karen Gillan again.
All things considered, I'll give this a 5/10.

The Mutants.

Bloody hell that was hard work.
I wanted to give it go to see if it was as dull as I remember, and it is.
Shame of it is that there's a nice little concept in there, but it would've been struggling to make a good 4 parter, let alone 6. I reckon 3 parts would've been about right.
Some piss poor performances in it too. Not just the obvious one, Cotton, but the Marshall is pretty awful too. I doubt if even Roger Delgado could've added much to this one.
It's 8 years since I've seen it, but I'm pretty sure it's the worst Pertwee story of the lot. Although I've got The Time Monster to come yet before I finish S9.
I've been generous in the past and given this 4/10, but I have to go with 3/10. It's a real chore. Those points are mainly for the idea, and for Jon Pertwee managing not to come across as bored.

I've got The Beast Below pencilled in for the next slot, but we'll see whether I can actually go through with my plan to have a second look at the Moffat era. Well actually, it will be a first look at a lot of it. Assuming that I can get further than I did before I bailed out the first time round.

iank wrote:I never got the impression the Doctor was dissing Rory for macho posturing reasons either. Maybe that's how Moffat wrote it but that's not how Smithy plays it. He just has no social filter whatsoever.

I often think that the positive aspects of the 11th Doctor's early characterisation had much more to do with Smith than Moffat. By taking inspiration from Troughton, he was able to translate Moffat's usual insecure macho posturing into something more acceptably Doctorish. I don't know if Matt was ordered to ham it up in later years, but I have read a few surprisingly candid interviews suggesting that he's not particularly impressed with his era after Series 5.

ClockworkOcean wrote:

iank wrote:I never got the impression the Doctor was dissing Rory for macho posturing reasons either. Maybe that's how Moffat wrote it but that's not how Smithy plays it. He just has no social filter whatsoever.

I often think that the positive aspects of the 11th Doctor's early characterisation had much more to do with Smith than Moffat. By taking inspiration from Troughton, he was able to translate Moffat's usual insecure macho posturing into something more acceptably Doctorish. I don't know if Matt was ordered to ham it up in later years, but I have read a few surprisingly candid interviews suggesting that he's not particularly impressed with his era after Series 5.

Which interviews were these? I’m intrigued to read them.

Bernard Marx wrote:

ClockworkOcean wrote:

iank wrote:I never got the impression the Doctor was dissing Rory for macho posturing reasons either. Maybe that's how Moffat wrote it but that's not how Smithy plays it. He just has no social filter whatsoever.

I often think that the positive aspects of the 11th Doctor's early characterisation had much more to do with Smith than Moffat. By taking inspiration from Troughton, he was able to translate Moffat's usual insecure macho posturing into something more acceptably Doctorish. I don't know if Matt was ordered to ham it up in later years, but I have read a few surprisingly candid interviews suggesting that he's not particularly impressed with his era after Series 5.

Which interviews were these? I’m intrigued to read them.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjlwZKbhOLkAhVVuHEKHfqHA14QFjAEegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.denofgeek.com%2Ftv%2Fdoctor-who%2F30145%2Fmatt-smith-on-doctor-who-the-best-storytelling-was-in-series-5&usg=AOvVaw1vYHchAeGas1JV-SEmJ8ux

I agree with Clockwork Ocean's assertions. I've always said that the reason Matt was the best New Who Doctor is because he wasn't a self loathing fan.

As much as I like Tennant and Capaldi I think they too much like the rest of the Fitzroy Crowd felt they needed to update the Doctor because they didn't have faith in the character or the concept.

Matt meanwhile who was outside the 90s fandom neurosis, came at it as an actor, watched the original series back and tried to emulate the character he saw in those stories, whilst bringing his own twist to it.

Sadly however Moffat botched his chances at being one of the all time greatest Doctors. (With the likes of Holmes and Hinchcliff Matt IMO could have been as good as Tom Baker in the role. He had as much natural charisma IMO.)

Having said that though Matt did seem eager for a romance with Jenna Coleman, though that was probably just him thinking with his dick. A good producer would have railed that in, unlike Moff who seem to revel in it.

What is Capaldi's connection with 90s fandom and the Fitzroy crowd?

Ronnie wrote:What is Capaldi's connection with 90s fandom and the Fitzroy crowd?

I know he was very close friends with Moffat. Other than that I don't know, but it seems to me that he might have gone along with some of the crap of his era. He recently tried to defend Moffat, by making out that he was responsible for all of the episodes of his era (as though that's anything to be proud of.)

Again not his fault in that he's an actor who couldn't change it. Remember some of Tom Baker's ideas at first were crap. Tom Baker never wanted his Doctor to do any fighting for instance, or kill his enemies as he was adamant the Doctor never take a life.

Hinchcliff and Holmes however sat Tom down and explained to him that that would be too jarring from Pertwee and the others before him and Tom eventually agreed (and ironically went on to do as much fighting as Jon Pertwee.)

Its always a collaborative effort between the actor and the writers and the producer, but in New Who I feel that RTD, Moffat and Chibnall just get people who all think exactly the same, or bully them as seen with Eccelston, and possibly Matt.

Look at this quote from RTD

Russell T Davies wrote:“I do worry about being surrounded by yes-men. You’re right, it happens. […] I don’t think it’s happened to me yet. In the end, just as good writers are hard to find, so are good script editors, good producers and good execs. When you find good people like Julie and Phil, their sheer talent cancels out the risk of them yes-ing. I suppose the danger is not RTD And The Yes-Men, but a triumverate of people who are so similar that contrary opinions don’t get a look-in.”

Explains everything really.

ClockworkOcean wrote:

iank wrote:I never got the impression the Doctor was dissing Rory for macho posturing reasons either. Maybe that's how Moffat wrote it but that's not how Smithy plays it. He just has no social filter whatsoever.

I often think that the positive aspects of the 11th Doctor's early characterisation had much more to do with Smith than Moffat. By taking inspiration from Troughton, he was able to translate Moffat's usual insecure macho posturing into something more acceptably Doctorish. I don't know if Matt was ordered to ham it up in later years, but I have read a few surprisingly candid interviews suggesting that he's not particularly impressed with his era after Series 5.

You're probably right. There's a lot of dialogue in series 5 that would have been unbearably loathsome coming from Tennant, but which Smithy either underplays or puts a spin on to make it seem more like he's blithely unaware of social conventions than just being an ego-driven prick.

burrunjor wrote:

Ronnie wrote:What is Capaldi's connection with 90s fandom and the Fitzroy crowd?

I know he was very close friends with Moffat. Other than that I don't know, but it seems to me that he might have gone along with some of the crap of his era. He recently tried to defend Moffat, by making out that he was responsible for all of the episodes of his era (as though that's anything to be proud of.)

Well if he's a close friend of Moffat, it's very likely that they think the same.
The rest is conjecture, but I think that's a fair assumption.
And if they are close friends, that would explain the casting decision.....

Well the stuff everyone hates (the glasses, the guitar) were almost certainly all Capaldi's ideas.

Saw The Five Doctors last night. I haven't seen this for a very long time, at least 7 years and I have a feeling it may even be longer than that, but for some reason I was just feeling in the mood and threw it on last night. Loved it. A glorious celebration of classic Who with enough nostalgia and warmth to cheer anyone up. Troughton and Pertwee slip back in like they've never been away, and Hurndall makes a way better faux 1st Doctor than a certain someone else ever did. Lovely.

The Beast Below.

This was actually not bad for the first 20 minutes. Smith plays a more than acceptable Doctor, and the story, although not particularly original, looks like it could go somewhere.
I was almost tempted to hit the forget button. To forget how shit NuWho had been (for the most part) up to this point. But of course once the story started going up a gear, the reminders start coming in. Smith gets a bit less classic and edges closer to the NuWho template for the Doctor just as Gold’s muzak starts ramping up the shiteness. Then we get the utterly cornball Liz 10, and by the end it’s largely defaulted to type as the quasi-Disney EMOtions overwhelm the proceedings.
If you hadn’t hit the protest (at how shite it is) button 20 minutes earlier, you should’ve done by now. Lol

This was looking like it could be 7/10 for a while, but by the end it’s down to 4/10.

The Daleks Master Plan Episode 12 - animated CGI reconstruction by (the amusingly named..) WHORECONS on YouTube.

I mostly liked this  - the computer graphics are far from ideal but I find it easier/more enjoyable to experience a missing episode in this format, as opposed to just listening to the audio/CD of a lost adventure.  Sarah Kingdom's gruesome death scene is a bit underwhelming though - I wanted grotesque images of her rapid ageing,  whereas the basic CGI just rendered the whole thing rather cute - oh well, nice try.

Before it was fully animated and released to buy, I used to have a very clean, digital quality images looking recon of Power of the Daleks, with the narration from the CD release superimposed over the top it.
I found that this was a brilliant way to enjoy the missing stories. Sadly, I was never able to track down such recon for DMP. Every one that I’ve come across has just been the audio without the narration.
But yes, it’s a superb epic story, and Ep 12 is the highlight. When I first heard it, Hartnell screaming ‘GET BACK!!’ made my hair almost stand on end. Lol

Ronnie wrote:Before it was fully animated and released to buy, I used to have a very clean, digital quality images looking recon of Power of the Daleks, with the narration from the CD release superimposed over the top it.
I found that this was a brilliant way to enjoy the missing stories. Sadly, I was never able to track down such recon for DMP. Every one that I’ve come across has just been the audio without the narration.
But yes, it’s a superb epic story, and Ep 12 is the highlight. When I first heard it, Hartnell screaming ‘GET BACK!!’ made my hair almost stand on end. Lol

I know some fans are unhappy with the animated style of the official BBC releases of missing/incomplete stories but I do wish they'd do a full colour, all episodes animated version of Masterplan (including the Mission to the Unknown prelude).  Perhaps release a deluxe Blu-Ray/DVD set, including the surviving episodes as extras as well as a photographic recon of TDMP as an alternative to the cartoon eps. Put some time and money into it - think Studio Ghibli, not Captain Pugwash. That'd be something worth waiting for.  
Ah, its never gonna happen...

Kaijuko wrote:

Ronnie wrote:Before it was fully animated and released to buy, I used to have a very clean, digital quality images looking recon of Power of the Daleks, with the narration from the CD release superimposed over the top it.
I found that this was a brilliant way to enjoy the missing stories. Sadly, I was never able to track down such recon for DMP. Every one that I’ve come across has just been the audio without the narration.
But yes, it’s a superb epic story, and Ep 12 is the highlight. When I first heard it, Hartnell screaming ‘GET BACK!!’ made my hair almost stand on end. Lol

I know some fans are unhappy with the animated style of the official BBC releases of missing/incomplete stories but I do wish they'd do a full colour, all episodes animated version of Masterplan (including the Mission to the Unknown prelude).  Perhaps release a deluxe Blu-Ray/DVD set, including the surviving episodes as extras as well as a photographic recon of TDMP as an alternative to the cartoon eps. Put some time and money into it - think Studio Ghibli, not Captain Pugwash. That'd be something worth waiting for.  
Ah, its never gonna happen...

Well, I was surprised when they chose The Macra Terror to be animated, when they've got stone cold classics like DMP hanging about with 3 episodes already intact.
Still, you never know....

Kaijuko wrote:The Daleks Master Plan Episode 12 - animated CGI reconstruction by (the amusingly named..) WHORECONS on YouTube.

We don't love dem hoes....

The Time Monster.

Well I've reached the end of S9 and got through the two worst Pertwee stories ever. (sigh of relief) Lol
Comparing it with The Mutants, I'd always considered this the better of the two, but this time was so hard to get through that I'm not so sure. Delgado is always a plus, but it's got to one of the worst Master stories. Seeing him playing the romeo, even if it is all just manipulation, somehow goes against the grain, and seeing him begging for his life also doesn't feel right for the character. I think Delgado handles it well enough, but I still can't help but cringe.
Ingrid Pitt isn't as bad as I remember, but but she still seems a bit amdram compared to her performances in films, which have always been good.
And maybe that's the peculiar thing about The Time Monster... I can accept low budget production values, otherwise I wouldn't be here discussing Dr Who, but coupled with the terrible realisation of Kronos, The Minotaur, and some low grade performances from some of the guest cast, the whole thing fails to deliver that certain Dr Who magic that takes you out of yourself. Even The Web Planet with its Blue Peter production values succeeds where The Time Monster fails. That whole feeling of watching a school play or an Amdram production persists, particularly in the Atlantis scenes.
All this and the fact that it's another 6 parter that really should've been 4.
I have to commend Barry Letts for attempting to do such an ambitious story. The whole interstitial time idea is a superb Sci-fi concept, but like The Mutants also had an intriguing idea, on these occasions the team didn't make them very well I'm afraid.
I'd probably still just about rate this higher than The Mutants, if only because this story, although a bit long-winded, doesn't really fall apart until episode 4.
So where I gave The Mutants a hard 3/10, I'll give The Time Monster a more forgiving 4/10.

I’ve not seen either The Mutants or The Time Monster in years, but my view was always that The Time Monster was more poorly written from an objective standpoint (especially with those Time Flow Analogue scenes), albeit more enjoyable than The Mutants for a certain portion of it. Both the worst Pertwee stories, as you say.

I’ve not watched a Who story lately, and am unable to decide which one to re-watch- anyone got any suggestions?

Bernard Marx wrote:I’ve not watched a Who story lately, and am unable to decide which one to re-watch- anyone got any suggestions?

The Web Planet or Battlefield. (random choices - heads or tails?)

Ronnie wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:I’ve not watched a Who story lately, and am unable to decide which one to re-watch- anyone got any suggestions?

The Web Planet or Battlefield. (random choices - heads or tails?)

Saw both merely a few months back, and so are fresh in the memory. Although I wouldn’t mind a surreal story like The Web Planet... I’ll go for either The Mind Robber (heads) or Curse of Fenric (tails).

Flipped, and got heads. Mind Robber it is.

Excellent choice. I will look forward to your thoughts.

Bernard Marx wrote:
Flipped, and got heads. Mind Robber it is.

Make sure you let us know what you think about Zoe's magnificent arse in that catsuit. Keep it dirty please.

Pepsi Maxil wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:
Flipped, and got heads. Mind Robber it is.

Make sure you let us know what you think about Zoe's magnificent arse in that catsuit. Keep it dirty please.

I’d prefer to keep it implicit and just call it magnificent as you say.

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed this. The ever-present surrealism of this tale is superbly realised by David Maloney’s direction as well as a highly sinister musical score (one track of which would be later re-used in Inferno). The minimalist nature of the first episode is quite mesmerising, and the rest of the story retains an immeasurable charm. This story has been criticised by some for being overly twee, which I can understand, but there’s an underlying sinister atmosphere behind almost every scene that makes the fantasy-esque narrative unnerving as opposed to patronising, which separates whatever tweeness this story has from the ever-twee nature of New Who. Jamie’s face changing due to Hines taking a week off as a result of Chicken Pox also allows for something of a semi-meta narrative to appear which makes the story all the more endearing and unique (speaking of a meta narrative, the Tardis monitor briefly reads in part 1 ‘Producer: Peter Bryant’, which whilst obviously a production error, can amusingly be interpreted as an allusion to the role of the Tardis crew within the land of fiction).

The story’s few shortcomings can mainly be attributed to a few plotting errors, though I may have misinterpreted these: It’s established that for the Doctor to kill Medusa via the sword would result in him becoming fiction due to the printout stating that this would be the outcome, so he resorts to using the mirror, although this outcome can be traced back to what Perseus had already done in the work of fiction the printout was derived and influenced by, so would the Doctor have surely become fiction anyway? The rest of the story is very air tight in terms of writing for a narrative this surreal, though this stuck out to me, though I could be wrong and talking complete bollocks. The ending is also considerably rushed. However, on the whole, the story encapsulates the hypnotic, endearing and melancholic quality I love so much about 60s Doctor Who as a whole, and is more intelligent and imaginative than all of New Who put together.