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Why did JNT stay so long?

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Rob Filth
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iank
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DogStar2000
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Bernard Marx
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26Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 23rd November 2019, 1:05 am

DogStar2000

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iank wrote:
DogStar2000 wrote:[
No he wasn't! If he was then the ratings would have been better. I have been hearing people defend this idiot for the best part of forty years now and it is getting old. Rolling Eyes

Not as tired as I am of idiots slagging him off because they're completely ignorant of reality.
That reality being… It's not on Saturday anymore and Doctor Who belongs on Saturday or it is on Saturday and Saturday is not a good day for Doctor Who anymore. Rolling Eyes

Or some other stupid excuse about this ass hole of a producer. Evil or Very Mad


https://theleisurehive.proboards.com/

27Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 23rd November 2019, 1:12 am

DogStar2000

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Pepsi Maxil wrote:
iank wrote:
DogStar2000 wrote:[
No he wasn't! If he was then the ratings would have been better. I have been hearing people defend this idiot for the best part of forty years now and it is getting old. Rolling Eyes

Not as tired as I am of idiots slagging him off because they're completely ignorant of reality.

Amen!
Why you Philip Hinchcliffe era hating loser. lol!

https://theleisurehive.proboards.com/

28Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 3:55 am

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

DogStar2000 wrote:That reality being… It's not on Saturday anymore and Doctor Who belongs on Saturday or it is on Saturday and Saturday is not a good day for Doctor Who anymore.  Rolling Eyes

Or some other stupid excuse about this ass hole of a producer.   Evil or Very Mad

I think the reality's somewhere in-between.

I do think JNT was a control freak and a reckless liability.

I also think that's not the whole reason things went so off-course for the show (even before Grade arrived).

Maybe to a degree JNT was made by his first year in charge. Having to deal with an out of control Tom Baker, and an appointed overseer he didn't want in Barry Letts. It might've been the bad start that influenced everything paranoid and insecure he did after, and indeed why he employed Ian Levine (who was happy to work for free) as his quick conduit to fan approval.

I'd say Saward was just as much of a liability though, if not moreso. You could equally blame JNT for choosing to employ him, but then the show had quickly gotten through a lot of script-editors since Holmes left. Read, Adams, Bidmead, Root.

It wasn't a show many wanted to be tied down to anymore, if there were greener pastures to move onto, and that's where most of the talent had gone. JNT was perhaps stuck with Saward because any better talents were unavailable or had moved on, leaving just the runt of the litter. Much like is the case with Chibnall today.

Overall, I think many of the problems were down to JNT, but a lot were simply, squarely down to the fact that the show was old, and that those who'd once nurtured it best had moved on, and the BBC had become increasingly apathetic to it.

29Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 10:08 am

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

In terms of ratings, the JNT era (bar season 18) remained relatively healthy during its first five years. To be honest, I’m not exactly sure what caused the considerable ratings decline by season 18 (I’ve heard a few explanations, mainly that of the presence of the Buck Rogers American import serving as a more expensive and glossier alternative to Doctor Who and thus attracting a larger audience brought up on Star Wars, though this can’t be the main and sole reason), so if anyone has any knowledge of how the decline took place, let me know.

Season 19 averaged over 9 million viewers and often rivalled the later Pertwee seasons and some of the early Tom Baker stories in terms of viewership, though this was likely down to the trivial factor of the casting of a new Doctor for the first time in seven years amidst many other things.

Season 20 suffers a ratings decline by some distance, though they were never truly disastrous, ranging from 5.8 to 7.7 million. For comparison, the lows of Troughton’s first season exceed it at 5.1 million, as do Pertwee’s first season at 4.8 million. The key difference being that the highs of season 4 and season 7 exceed the highs of season 20 by some way (at 8.9 and 9.3 million respectively). Overall, one can easily interpret season 20’s ratings as a disappointment when compared to previous years (especially considering its status as the 20th anniversary year), although I’d hardly call it an absolute failure or a genuine disaster given that lower than usual ratings were not unseen prior to this point. Once again, I must ask: What specifically resulted in this season garnering lower than usual ratings?

Season 21 is an improvement on 20 overall in terms of ratings, ranging from 5.6-8 million viewers, and garnered a higher average at 7.18 million- higher than season 20’s average of 7.08 million (and season 7’s average of 7.17 million).

Season 22 ranges from 6.0 million to 8.9 million, indicative of a gradual upturn in terms of ratings from season 21, which was itself an upturn from 20. I fail to understand the argument proposed by many that season 22 suffered from bad ratings (as reiterated by those who push the narrative forward concerning Colin’s era being a dismal failure on all fronts)- in terms of peaks, it nears season 7’s 9.3 million, and well exceeds it in terms of lows (6 million > 4.8 million). This can also be applied to Troughton’s first season, and indeed his last (where The War Games Episode 8 garnered a worrying 3.5 million viewers).

The post-hiatus period sees the considerable decline in ratings that the era is renowned for, where the tabloid press provided to the programme in 1986 (coupled with Grade and Powell’s often contradictory indictments provided to season 22 and the fucking awful “Doctor in Distress” video) caused the series to be viewed as an embarrassment in the eyes of the general public. That, and the overall quality of seasons 23 and 24 was widely perceived as subpar, with the slashed budget and pantomime sensibilities reinforcing the notion of Who as an exhausted and weightless embarrassment. By the end of season 25, ratings briefly begin to increase again even when up against Coronation Street (with the final episode of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy gaining 6.6 million), indicative that a gradual improvement was still underway and possible by then. Yet Powell’s refusal to grant the programme any considerable marketing or advertising at all by season 26 saw the ratings plummet to an all time low, though ratings still started to slowly climb up to 5 million by the season’s conclusion. But it wasn’t enough, and the plug was pulled.

In conclusion, although the declining quality of the programme can indeed be attributed to the programme’s decline in ratings during the decade, there were many extenuating factors at play later on, and I don’t think it’s as simple as to blame JNT entirely for the ratings decline. They were, after all, very gradually improving up to season 22, and didn’t represent the programme at its absolute worst in terms of ratings. I do not ascertain that ratings are directly proportional to quality by any stretch (the RTD era is evidence of that), and whilst I recognise the flaws of the era, I don’t think it’s as simple as to blame one single entity for what took place concerning the ratings decline.



Last edited by Bernard Marx on 24th November 2019, 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total

30Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 11:27 am

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

DogStar2000 wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:
iank wrote:
DogStar2000 wrote:[
No he wasn't! If he was then the ratings would have been better. I have been hearing people defend this idiot for the best part of forty years now and it is getting old. Rolling Eyes

Not as tired as I am of idiots slagging him off because they're completely ignorant of reality.

Amen!
Why you Philip Hinchcliffe era hating loser. lol!

I'd say going after and verbally abusing a dead man are traits of a loser Wink I expect nothing else from such a bitter and twisted section of fandom.

31Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 1:28 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Pepsi Maxil wrote:I'd say going after and verbally abusing a dead man are traits of a loser Wink I expect nothing else from such a bitter and twisted section of fandom.

By 'going after', you mean disagreeing honestly and profusely when presented too often with a borderline cultish sycophantic partyline about how nothing was his fault?

Maybe 'idiot' or 'asshole' wasn't the wisest thing to say, but it was largely said off the cuff and wasn't exactly a tirade. Nor was it the worst thing in the world to say or has been said about someone who's passed away who might've made their share of catastrophic mistakes against all sensible advice or cavalier behavior when alive and in charge.

I would always take being 'bitter and twisted' over only being allowed to have 'good' opinions on the show and its makers, regardless of if they're how I genuinely feel at heart or not. Just because some fans decide that we're all supposed to act like we're attending a funeral that none of us wanted to and that never ended.

Besides, are you really saying that if Chibnall died tomorrow we wouldn't be allowed to hate his era or his choices with the show ever again?



Last edited by Tanmann on 24th November 2019, 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

32Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 1:31 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

It comes across as a personal grudge rather than anything objective.

33Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 1:59 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Pepsi Maxil wrote:It comes across as a personal grudge rather than anything objective.

Why should someone be obliged to be objective about the bits of the show they like and dislike? Is being passionate about the show not allowed, or is it simply only positive passionate feelings are allowed now?

Do we now have to renounce everything we've said about Chibnall and Whittaker that wasn't objective?

Besides, what you call a personal grudge, I would call an honest, frustrated reaction to fandom's undying cult of personality surrounding the man, that seems to allow no differing thoughts or opinions (objective or otherwise) on his era or his creative choices that can never be anything but saintly.

I don't think one has to hold a grudge to want to speak some colorful, self-determined honesty to that when presented with it.

34Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 3:25 pm

DogStar2000

avatar

Pepsi Maxil wrote:
DogStar2000 wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:
iank wrote:
DogStar2000 wrote:[
No he wasn't! If he was then the ratings would have been better. I have been hearing people defend this idiot for the best part of forty years now and it is getting old. Rolling Eyes

Not as tired as I am of idiots slagging him off because they're completely ignorant of reality.

Amen!
Why you Philip Hinchcliffe era hating loser. lol!

I'd say going after and verbally abusing a dead man are traits of a loser Wink I expect nothing else from such a bitter and twisted section of fandom.
The fact that he is dead has nothing to do with it, but fans of that era keep hiding behind it to demonize his critics and smooth over what he did to the show.

There is nothing bitter or twisted about disliking or even hating someone who behaved the way he did. The things I have heard about him, from multiple sources, earns him my contempt yet people just keep defending him. Shudder

https://theleisurehive.proboards.com/

35Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 3:33 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

I just find it pathetic that fans have a vendetta against him and continue to smear his good name on countless sites just because he made some changes to their favourite television show.

36Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 3:50 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

DogStar2000 wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:
DogStar2000 wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:
iank wrote:
DogStar2000 wrote:[
No he wasn't! If he was then the ratings would have been better. I have been hearing people defend this idiot for the best part of forty years now and it is getting old. Rolling Eyes

Not as tired as I am of idiots slagging him off because they're completely ignorant of reality.

Amen!
Why you Philip Hinchcliffe era hating loser. lol!

I'd say going after and verbally abusing a dead man are traits of a loser Wink I expect nothing else from such a bitter and twisted section of fandom.
The fact that he is dead has nothing to do with it, but fans of that era keep hiding behind it to demonize his critics and smooth over what he did to the show.  

There is nothing bitter or twisted about disliking or even hating someone who behaved the way he did. The things I have heard about him, from multiple sources, earns him my contempt yet people just keep defending him.  Shudder



How resentful. You cannot bear the idea of him having defenders.

37Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 3:53 pm

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

DogStar2000 wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:
DogStar2000 wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:
iank wrote:
DogStar2000 wrote:[
No he wasn't! If he was then the ratings would have been better. I have been hearing people defend this idiot for the best part of forty years now and it is getting old. Rolling Eyes

Not as tired as I am of idiots slagging him off because they're completely ignorant of reality.

Amen!
Why you Philip Hinchcliffe era hating loser. lol!

I'd say going after and verbally abusing a dead man are traits of a loser Wink I expect nothing else from such a bitter and twisted section of fandom.
The fact that he is dead has nothing to do with it, but fans of that era keep hiding behind it to demonize his critics and smooth over what he did to the show.  

There is nothing bitter or twisted about disliking or even hating someone who behaved the way he did. The things I have heard about him, from multiple sources, earns him my contempt yet people just keep defending him.  Shudder

Forgive me for potentially missing something from a prior thread, but what things have you heard about him?

38Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 4:04 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Pepsi Maxil wrote:I just find it pathetic that fans have a vendetta against him and continue to smear his good name on countless sites just because he made some changes to their favourite television show.

Does that mean you're never going to express a bad word against Chibnall again?

39Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 4:07 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Bernard Marx wrote:To be honest, I’m not exactly sure what caused the considerable ratings decline by season 18 (I’ve heard a few explanations, mainly that of the presence of the Buck Rogers American import serving as a more expensive and glossier alternative to Doctor Who and thus attracting a larger audience brought up on Star Wars, though this can’t be the main and sole reason), so if anyone has any knowledge of how the decline took place, let me know.

From what I've read, *most* of the BBC's Saturday night programs suffered in the ratings that year. For some reason it just suddenly didn't seem to be seen as the audience event it used to be.

It's perhaps natural enough that viewers chose Buck Rodgers because they wanted the Star Wars experience again that Doctor Who didn't seem able to provide anymore.

It's possible that the show had seemed too safe for too long, and that audiences had forgotten the higher stakes and suspense of the Hinchcliffe era, or had just gotten bored with Season 17's old party tricks in the end.

Personally I do think if I'd been a fan watching at the time, The Leisure Hive honestly would've made me give up on the show in frustration. But the ratings suggest it wasn't even given a first look.

Overall, one can easily interpret season 20’s ratings as a disappointment when compared to previous years (especially considering its status as the 20th anniversary year), although I’d hardly call it an absolute failure or a genuine disaster given that lower than usual ratings were not unseen prior to this point. Once again, I must ask: What specifically resulted in this season garnering lower than usual ratings?

Objectively, I would say the arrival of Channel 4 and availability of home video would've had some effect. And I think it got moved about again in the schedules (the BBC seemed to be treating the show as a guinea pig for where best to eventually place their new soap Eastenders)

My gut, however would pin the blame on the disappointment of Time-Flight. It seemed there was an enthusiastic audience for Davison in his first year, but I think unfortunately Time-Flight would've left them feeling cheated. Nothing about the story seems to make sense or matter. It's a terrible followup to Earthshock, and seems to tarnish any ability to care about the show's events ever again.

What I think is troubling about that ratings dip is that back in 1972, The Three Doctors was seen as a massive event and caused a massive spike in ratings that seemed to single-handedly turn around the lows of Troughton's era, and restore the show to ratings health again.

The Five Doctors ideally should've had the same effect, but instead seemed to fare poorer than Time-Flight did.

It was put up against The A-Team, so that almost certainly had a lot to do with it. Maybe it was the fact Tom wasn't going to be in it that made viewers less interested, or maybe Season 20 had been too much of a chore to them already. Maybe there would've been more public interest if the Dalek story hadn't been postponed a year, and had happened.

But either way, The Five Doctors did not manage to save the show in the way The Three Doctors had ten years earlier.

Season 21 is an improvement on 20 overall in terms of ratings, ranging from 5.6-8 million viewers, and garnered a higher average at 7.18 million- higher than season 20’s average of 7.08 million (and season 7’s average of 7.17 million).

I suppose it might've benefited from the return of the Daleks, and to a lesser extent, the Sea Devils (so maybe I was wrong that attempting a revival of them was a mistake from the start, though Warriors did see a ratings decline from episodes 3 to 4).

Season 22 ranges from 6.0 million to 8.9 million, indicative of a gradual upturn in terms of ratings from season 21, which was itself an upturn from 20. I fail to understand the argument proposed by many that season 22 suffered from bad ratings (as reiterated by those who push the narrative forward concerning Colin’s era being a dismal failure on all fronts)- in terms of peaks, it nears season 7’s 9.3 million, and well exceeds it in terms of lows (6 million > 4.8 million). This can also be applied to Troughton’s first season, and indeed his last (where The War Games Episode 8 garnered a worrying 3.5 million viewers).

I think indeed fans do have a need to find anything worrying in the ratings that might coincide with Grade's arrival and decision to get shot of the series. They know it was his vendetta against the show, but perhaps they want to believe that if the show had been doing just a bit better it would've changed his mind or he wouldn't have been able to justify the decision enough, or there would've been others in the BBC who protected the show from him.

But, there is a part of me that thinks it'd been in the cards for a while. That the BBC might've forgiven the low ratings of Season 18 or 20 as a blip, and that the show had been too successful beforehand and had too much potential to be successful again, to justify taking it off then. But maybe by Season 22 they decided things hadn't been looking that up for a while, and their gambles on what another year or a new production team might still yield had been spent.

The post-hiatus period sees the considerable decline in ratings that the era is renowned for, where the tabloid press provided to the programme in 1986 (coupled with Grade and Powell’s often contradictory indictments provided to season 22 and the fucking awful “Doctor in Distress” video) caused the series to be viewed as an embarrassment in the eyes of the general public.

Nitpicky point, but I don't think Doctor In Distress even made much of a public impression either way. It ended up getting no airplay because huge portions of its lyrics are impossible to make out. I'm not sure the video got aired much either.

That, and the overall quality of seasons 23 and 24 was widely perceived as subpar, with the slashed budget and pantomime sensibilities reinforcing the notion of Who as an exhausted and weightless embarrassment.

I would say Season 23 was the double-edged sword. For some it was far too silly, pantomime and mired in its own continuity. For others who were concerned about the show's nastiness of late, I imagine Peri's death was the last straw.

Then again, I think once a show gets messed about in the schedules, people can just get fed up of having to chase it when they used to know when it was reliably on. There's a few shows I used to love or at least have a residual loyalty to, that slowly lost me purely on the fact I got fed up of being stood up once too often. Dawson's Creek, Buffy, Angel, Enterprise. And if there were elements of the show I didn't like as much anymore, then the erratic scheduling made it all the easier to break that commitment.

In conclusion, although the declining quality of the programme can indeed be attributed to the programme’s decline in ratings during the decade, there were many extenuating factors at play later on, and I don’t think it’s as simple as to blame JNT entirely for the ratings decline. They were, after all, very gradually improving up to season 22, and didn’t represent the programme at its absolute worst in terms of ratings. I do not ascertain that ratings are directly proportional to quality by any stretch (the RTD era is evidence of that), and whilst I recognise the flaws of the era, I don’t think it’s as simple as to blame one single entity for what took place concerning the ratings decline.

I'm not terribly able to be objective on it.

My gut feeling is that the reason the ratings were not great is because the show in the main, wasn't really giving the audience anything to root for anymore. The Doctor didn't seem to be the affirming capable hero he once was.

He seemed, much like the production team to be a bit meandering, indecisive and unfit for purpose, and even when he did achieve something (Castrovalva) it was usually undone the next time the Master showed up.

I think the show defied the audience to go elsewhere for heroes that were worth rooting for, and eventually (after waiting in vain for things to improve) they did.

40Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 4:10 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Tanmann wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:I just find it pathetic that fans have a vendetta against him and continue to smear his good name on countless sites just because he made some changes to their favourite television show.

Does that mean you're never going to express a bad word against Chibnall again?

I don't have a vendetta against Chibnall. I'm not out to smear him as a human being and trying to convince fandom that he's really some sort of evil, verminous hack that deserves to be stoned for his crimes. He's a bloody script writer and John was a producer. You all act as if he was a war criminal.

41Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 4:20 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Pepsi Maxil wrote:
Tanmann wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:I just find it pathetic that fans have a vendetta against him and continue to smear his good name on countless sites just because he made some changes to their favourite television show.

Does that mean you're never going to express a bad word against Chibnall again?

I don't have a vendetta against Chibnall. I'm not out to smear him as a human being and trying to convince fandom that he's really some sort of evil, verminous hack that deserves to be stoned for his crimes.

No, but you have in speaking bad about him, associated yourself with those who do. And you are currently implicating Dogstar as part of a greater gestalt of haters.

Therefore by your criteria, you're part of a 'pathetic vendetta' against Chibnall and should be ashamed by your association with those other fans who 'don't like change'.

42Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 4:28 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Tanmann wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:
Tanmann wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:I just find it pathetic that fans have a vendetta against him and continue to smear his good name on countless sites just because he made some changes to their favourite television show.

Does that mean you're never going to express a bad word against Chibnall again?

I don't have a vendetta against Chibnall. I'm not out to smear him as a human being and trying to convince fandom that he's really some sort of evil, verminous hack that deserves to be stoned for his crimes.

No, but you have in speaking bad about him, associated yourself with those who do. And you are currently implicating Dogstar as part of a greater gestalt of haters.

Therefore by your criteria, you're part of a 'pathetic vendetta' against Chibnall and should be ashamed by your association with those other fans who 'don't like change'.




Speaking bad about someone's work is different than having an outright personal vendetta against a man you've never met and actively trying, for years and years, to make out that he was an awful human being simply because they made certain creative choices you didn't like. DogStar heard a few things and holds the man in contempt. I dislike Chibnall as a writer and certainly don't like his persona, but I certainly wouldn't smear him as a human being and actively make up lies about him to suit some crazy, paranoid agenda against him like the majority of JNT bashers.

43Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 4:41 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Pepsi Maxil wrote:
Speaking bad about someone's work is different than having an outright personal vendetta against a man you've never met and actively trying, for years and years, to make out that he was an awful human being simply because they made certain creative choices you didn't like. DogStar heard a few things and holds the man in contempt. I dislike Chibnall as a writer and certainly don't like his persona, but I certainly wouldn't smear him as a human being and actively make up lies about him to suit some crazy, paranoid agenda against him like the majority of JNT bashers.

Bullshit!

All you're doing is applying a hypocritical double standard of condemning JNT's haters for the very things you've always given a pass to RTD's haters for doing.

And why is disliking Chibnall and his personality any better than holding him in contempt?

And what lies have been said? Maybe a few lies have been made by the Gary Levy's, but it seems to me most things revealed about what happened behind the scenes have at least a worrying kernel of truth to them that's been corroborated by various others who were there, but JNT's cult of defenders will automatically dismiss as lies even the stuff that's true, because truth is the enemy to any cult, so no nuance becomes possible.

44Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 5:13 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Tanmann wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:
Speaking bad about someone's work is different than having an outright personal vendetta against a man you've never met and actively trying, for years and years, to make out that he was an awful human being simply because they made certain creative choices you didn't like. DogStar heard a few things and holds the man in contempt. I dislike Chibnall as a writer and certainly don't like his persona, but I certainly wouldn't smear him as a human being and actively make up lies about him to suit some crazy, paranoid agenda against him like the majority of JNT bashers.


what lies have been said?

The damaging lie that he abused kid fans. There was no evidence of him ever preying on fans.

45Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 5:19 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

There are a fair few accounts that support that Gary Downie did, and JNT seemed happy to be his enabler. And that certainly supports that there was some kind of cultish air to what was going on behind the scenes.

Perhaps little wonder the show itself began to turn into an irrational cult, when previously it used to be a show for everybody.

46Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 6:48 pm

DogStar2000

avatar

Bernard Marx wrote:
Forgive me for potentially missing something from a prior thread, but what things have you heard about him?
The predatory behaviour toward young fans; the spiting at one actresses, being really hostile to another and treating the directors he employed in a very shoddy fashion.

https://theleisurehive.proboards.com/

47Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 6:50 pm

REDACTED

avatar

Bernard ''NOT A RELATION OF KARL'' Marx wrote:Forgive me for potentially missing something from a prior thread, but what things have you heard about him?

Well some of the well known things that have been stated about him are.

Using Ian Levine for sexual purposes.

Firing Peter Grimwade just because he took the crew out for a meal (or drink) without consulting him.

The ''Doable Barkers'' stories (the fans he and Downie reportedly stalked at conventions)

Chainsmoking in front of Sophie Aldred after she mentioned that she found it distracting.

Spitting in Nicola Bryant's face after Gary told her that there was ''something'' going on between her and one of their close friends.


(On a side note, I don't hate JNT as a person or a showrunner, I was just providing an answer to Marxie's question)

48Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 24th November 2019, 7:23 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Indrid Mercury wrote:(On a side note, I don't hate JNT as a person or a showrunner, I was just providing an answer to Marxie's question)

After all these years, my position on him is still complicated. He can come across as very likable indeed in interviews, and there are plenty of moments when he reminisces on the hell he suffered where I can't help but feel for the guy.

But I often come back to the position that whilst he might've ordinarily been a nice enough guy, he probably shouldn't have been given the power over the show and its fan following he was, as it seemed to bring out the worst in him and his staff, he was reckless with it, it transformed fandom for the worst (chiefly because of the power he gave Ian Levine), and had a chilling/repellent effect on the talents the show still needed.

I'm occasionally amenable to the idea that maybe for his first season he was the kind of overbearing control freak the show actually needed at that point. I'm occasionally amenable to the possibility that the worst excesses of his era might not have happened had Saward left on The Five Doctors. But even then I think Logopolis was already a reckless, wrong move for the show that opened up a Pandora's box of problems.

49Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 25th November 2019, 4:44 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Indrid Mercury wrote:.

Using Ian Levine for sexual purposes.


Yeah, but we've all done that.

50Why did JNT stay so long?  - Page 2 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 25th November 2019, 5:19 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

But we haven't all been given a higher calling to nurture a family show like Doctor Who that's watched and enjoyed by millions, only to recklessly abuse that responsibility and shun the talents it needed just because we'd rather create our own personality cult.

And in the interests of fairness, I'll say Saward abused that higher calling too, and the BBC should've put a foot down sooner with the pair of them.



Last edited by Tanmann on 25th November 2019, 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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