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The Hive » Doctor Who » Doctor Who: The 1980s » Why did JNT stay so long?

Why did JNT stay so long?

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Rob Filth
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iank
Ludders
Zarius
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101Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 16th December 2019, 7:10 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Pepsi Maxil wrote:What I don't like is being called an opinion fascist

Well get used to it because it's what you are.

Have you waiting all this time for me to return so you could this to me?

No, I would've been happy if I never had to even worry about having to mind treading around your personal eggshells again.

102Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 16th December 2019, 7:14 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Tanmann wrote:
Pepsi Maxil wrote:What I don't like is being called an opinion fascist

Well get used to it because it's what you are.

Have you waiting all this time for me to return so you could this to me?

No, I would've been happy if I never had to even worry about having to mind treading around your personal eggshells again.

Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Giphy

103Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 16th December 2019, 8:29 pm

REDACTED

avatar

Look, do we have to have another argument over this?

Can you just put your differences aside and not derail yet another thread over the issue?

104Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 16th December 2019, 8:41 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Indrid Mercury wrote:Look, do we have to have another argument over this?

Can you just put your differences aside and not derail yet another thread over the issue?

Okay, I suppose you're right that this isn't getting us anywhere. Certainly I feel I've said my last piece, and I've nothing more to say on the issue.

I don't know if our differences can be resolved at this point, but I suppose we'll just have to try to be as neighbourly as we can.

105Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 16th December 2019, 8:47 pm

Zarius

Zarius

It gives me something to moan about and write about, I like Bradley, and there's sod all else on. 'course I'll give it a whirl.

106Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 16th December 2019, 8:54 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Tanmann wrote:.
I don't know if our differences can be resolved at this point, but I suppose we'll just have to try to be as neighbourly as we can.

Of course they can. We've had more friendly discussions in the past than arguments. I don't want this thing to carry on and make the place unbearable for others members. I don't particularly like being on bad terms with people on the forum either.

107Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 16th December 2019, 9:06 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Pepsi Maxil wrote:
Tanmann wrote:.
I don't know if our differences can be resolved at this point, but I suppose we'll just have to try to be as neighbourly as we can.

Of course they can. We've had more friendly discussions in the past than arguments. I don't want this thing to carry on and make the place unbearable for others members. I don't particularly like being on bad terms with people on the forum either.

Okay. That's very true.

108Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 16th December 2019, 9:07 pm

iank

iank

This thread got tediously derailed, now didn't it?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

109Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 16th December 2019, 9:24 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Perhaps we just didn't really want to talk about Series 12 all that much.

110Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty [Split] JNT Debate Thread 16th December 2019, 9:59 pm

iank

iank

Would that be the royal we?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

111Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 20th December 2019, 7:41 am

Ludders

Ludders

Kind of ironic that this is my best thread ever in terms of traffic, and it was just an idle musing really.
I may not be the biggest fan of '80s Who, but I haven't got a massive grudge with JNT. He made a few decisions that I thought were poorly judged, but nothing compares to the utter catastrophe that RTD created. Let's all just remember that? 😂

112Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 20th December 2019, 2:12 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Ronnie wrote:He made a few decisions that I thought were poorly judged, but nothing compares to the utter catastrophe that RTD created. Let's all just remember that? 😂

I slightly disagree (though I suspect I'm the only one here who would). I still think Warriors of the Deep was a worse, irreparable character assassination of the Doctor than anything RTD, Moffat or Chibnall ever gave us. It was also worse and more hateful in its warped message/ideology than any of the misandry of Capaldi's era or the 'wokeness' in Series 11.

And I stand by what I said earlier. Chibnall may have alienated the fanbase by doing what he did, but to my mind that's no different to JNT giving Ian Levine undue influence over the show, and gradually pushing it into being a more cultish show that was made only for fans like him.

That fans who are not like Ian Levine or part of his cult following, and the casual viewers who were possibly aspiring to be fans, were now being effectively told if they're not that kind of fan, then they must either become that kind of fan and subscribe to how the Levine cult thinks, or they can get lost. Which was all the more tragic given the growing good will the show had amassed during Pertwee and Tom's time, and how much further it could've gone from there otherwise.

So in that way I think the JNT era doomed itself from the start.

It seemed to also make the petty-minded Levine acolyte type of fans dominate the conversation and turn fandom into more of a cult. I do believe that promoting the wrong figurehead can bring the worst elements of a following out of the woodwork and to the top, as happened with Corbyn's Labour, where it began to seem like the nastiest cranks of the left were becoming more vocal now and making the party a hostile place.

113Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 20th December 2019, 3:01 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Ronnie wrote:He made a few decisions that I thought were poorly judged

Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Source

114Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 20th December 2019, 4:18 pm

Ludders

Ludders

I agree with a lot of your points Tannmann. I suppose at the end of the day it doesn’t bug me as much as it does you, but i think a lot of what you say is correct.
It’s funny, but before NuWho came along ‘80s Who was like NuWho is to me now. 😆
I suppose I’ve got RTD to thank for putting it in perspective for me and making me appreciate 80s Who a lot more. Lol

115Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 21st December 2019, 4:47 am

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Ronnie wrote:It’s funny, but before NuWho came along ‘80s Who was like NuWho is to me now. 😆
I suppose I’ve got RTD to thank for putting it in perspective for me and making me appreciate 80s Who a lot more. Lol

Best I can manage is to appreciate what it could’ve been, and what it occasionally strived and managed to be (Remembrance of the Daleks). I just sorely lament that it took so many pointless detours and dead ends to get there.

Ironically in a lot of ways the RTD era seemed to want to be an over-correction for the JNT years (and perhaps pick up where Hand of Fear and City of Death left off), but in other ways an attempt to outdo them.

An overcorrection in the sense it made a big deal about being comical, populist and accessible (to the point of being dumbed down to a room temperature level IQ) to make up for the 80's years where it seemed to be exclusively fan-aimed and humourless.

There was an emphasis on frenetic urgency as if to over-compensate for the 80's years of leaden, lethargic directing. Whereas Adric's death seemed forgotten a minute into the next story, Tennant seemed to spend two whole seasons not getting over Rose's departure, and RTD seemed obsessed with contriving as many weepy moments of emoting as he could.

He also jettisoned JNT's rather neurotic "no hanky panky" rule, and pretty much wrote all the characters like a bunch of horny teenagers. Saward's "everyone dies" approach whilst the Doctor's simply ineffectual (and can't be relied on to do anything except finally snap after it's all too late), substituted by "everybody lives", and the Doctor being made too powerful and God-like. An entire episode (Love & Monsters) was devoted to bashing fans like Ian Levine, whilst the Long Game seemed to exist just to introduce an Adric proxy purely so the Doctor could immediately kick him out and declare himself too cool for nerds now.

In other ways of course RTD's era seemed a doubling down and an attempt to outdo the JNT era in the stakes of celebrity guest star casting, showmanship  over substance, casting Doctors young, tabloid-pandering stunts, ruthlessly turning the series into a brand, and going for McCoy era slapstick. In many ways Silver Nemesis looks the prototype for the New Who season finale.

RTD's era seemed praised for this by many fans who wanted the show to seem respectable again. To my mind it more resembled that nerdy kid who one year suddenly starts ingratiating himself with the cool kids, bragging about how many girls he's fingered and joining in their mocking of his former friends.

But either way both eras managed to have their own cultish effect on the fanbase. For many RTD sycoophants, his ruthless driving back of the Ian Levine influence by proving willing to slaughter all sacred cows for the lols, is something RTD was almost turned into a deity for alone. He was seen as the saviour the show needed, who would, whether it was even really necessary or not, burn Moscow to save Russia.

116Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 8:40 am

Rob Filth

Rob Filth

Basically, the difference between Chinballs and JNT is that JNT is a GOD and we should all immediately lube up and bend over to be doable barkers in his honour.

Chris Chibnall on the other hand is just a cunt.

Get over it.

http://www.thefuckingobvious.com

117Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 8:45 am

iank

iank

Rob nailed it there, I'm afraid.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

118Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 11:34 am

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

iank wrote:Rob nailed it there, I'm afraid.

Well he didn't convince me.

Probably because I have him on ignore though.

119Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 11:42 am

Rob Filth

Rob Filth

Tanmann wrote:
iank wrote:Rob nailed it there, I'm afraid.

Well he didn't convince me.

Probably because I have him on ignore though.

Sadako had a bad experience as a doable barker.

They didn't use any lube with him, they went in for the dry-run instead.

http://www.thefuckingobvious.com

120Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 12:09 pm

prick

prick

Rob Filth wrote:
Tanmann wrote:
iank wrote:Rob nailed it there, I'm afraid.

Well he didn't convince me.

Probably because I have him on ignore though.

Sadako had a bad experience as a doable barker.

They didn't use any lube with him, they went in for the dry-run instead.

121Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 12:16 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

prick wrote:
Rob Filth wrote:
Tanmann wrote:
iank wrote:Rob nailed it there, I'm afraid.

Well he didn't convince me.

Probably because I have him on ignore though.

Sadako had a bad experience as a doable barker.

They didn't use any lube with him, they went in for the dry-run instead.


Oh so that's the 'winning case' I missed?

Rolling Eyes

122Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 12:43 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

I wouldn't phrase it quite like that, but I do agree that JNT should be respected for his contributions to the series. The fans were constantly calling for his head, the men upstairs obviously loathed his guts and some of his colleagues conspired behind his back. He still made the best show he possibly could despite all of that.

123Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 12:55 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

He also had a run in with government agents who threatened to kidnap his beloved dog (seen in Fenric) if he didn't go through with the Trial story. He knew the idea was a terrible one, but his loyalty to his canine friend was too strong. The media doesn't want you to know things like that.

124Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 1:06 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Pepsi Maxil wrote:I wouldn't phrase it quite like that, but I do agree that JNT should be respected for his contributions to the series. The fans were constantly calling for his head, the men upstairs obviously loathed his guts and some of his colleagues conspired behind his back. He still made the best show he possibly could despite all of that. Thank you, John.

The only part in that I take issue with is 'he made the best show he possibly could'. When given some of the good writers who'd been blacklisted, he was actually often the blocking element preventing the show from having better scripts it could've had. (that's not to say Saward couldn't be a stubborn blocking element as well, given he seemed the reason we never heard from Barbara Clegg again)

His colleagues could be incredibly dodgy and petty though, I'll definitely grant that. And whilst I used to arrogantly think that was down to him for choosing the wrong staff and cultivating that bad working culture, I've come to realize recently that not many were taking the offer of full-time script editor (and most of those who did, didn't stay long before moving onto greener pastures), so maybe JNT just was stuck with the likes of Saward because no-one else was free or willing for the job (just like we're stuck with Chibnal today).

125Why did JNT stay so long? - Page 5 Empty Re: Why did JNT stay so long? 2nd January 2020, 1:13 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Pepsi Maxil wrote:He also had a run in with government agents who threatened to kidnap his beloved dog (seen in Fenric) if he didn't go through with the Trial story. He knew the idea was a terrible one, but his loyalty to his canine friend was too strong. The media doesn't want you to know things like that.

Well, Trial wasn't actually that bad IMO.

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