At what point did you realize Nuwho is not all that?

Series 4, episode 1 for me. At the age of 9 I sat through 25 minutes of Partners In Crime and then went off and did something else. I didn't like the pairing or the laughable attempts at humour. I continued to watch series 4 though I really didn't get much enjoyment or entertainment value in any of the episodes. I I stumbled across The Two Doctors on UKTV Gold which I thought was miles better. It was Doctor Who but it was darker, more intelligent and more "fun" than what was being aired at the time. My interest plummeted completely with the specials, had risen a bit with the first half of series 5 and then completely died with 6. Ever since then I've found it to be utterly shite.

First inkling, the burping bin and plastic Micky. The thing that confirmed it, probably the Dalek/Cybermen battle where the Cybermen offered no resistance to the Daleks. It still had bright spots but, overall, I knew then. Gave up for a bit when they stunt cast Catherine Tate who is a terrible actress with a horrible character. Thought Moffat might changes things for the better... Oh, how wrong I was. And Season 8 made me lose the will to live, 9 is probably worse. I quite enjoyed 10 till the Monk 3-parter.

Mr. Happy wrote:First inkling, the burping bin and plastic Micky. The thing that confirmed it, probably the Dalek/Cybermen battle where the Cybermen offered no resistance to the Daleks. It still had bright spots but, overall, I knew then. Gave up for a bit when they stunt cast Catherine Tate who is a terrible actress with a horrible character. Thought Moffat might changes things for the better... Oh, how wrong I was. And Season 8 made me lose the will to live, 9 is probably worse. I quite enjoyed 10 till the Monk 3-parter.

The first two Monk episodes are shit, especially that second one but "The Lie of the Land" was quite decent apart from a crap ending. Series 8 was a lie. "it will be more like the classic series" "it will be darker" they said. It ended up being the same nonsense as before.

Kill The Moon was the end for me.

Series Eight and Ten. I kind of liked series nine though.

Right at the end of Series 1 for me. When Rose became possessed by the power of the Time Vortex and literally disintegrated an entire army of Daleks. Then to add insult to injury, you had the Doctor snog her to absorb the Time Vortex in order to stop her from dying.

Then of course, immediately after, you had Eccleston regenerate into the worst Doctor in the entire history of the show. Oh, yeah. Did I mention that I hated Tennant from the very moment I first saw him?

I started having issues around about the time sex offender Bruno Langley turned up to romance Rose in an otherwise good Dalek Episode.

I'd even overlooked the campy capers of the opening episode and Aliens of London/WWIII, as I thought the series might get more serious as it progressed.

Once Moffat had ruined a perfectly good story by giving us Craptain Jerk and resurrected everyone with fairy dust, I was pretty sure the show wasn't really Doctor Who as we knew it, but a shallow, broad-stroke, comic-book pastiche of the original series.

Although I didn't really start hating bits of it until the smug scenes of Tennant and Piper being utterly unfunny cunts as they lay on the grass in New Earth. Then, deep down, I knew exactly what RTD was playing at: a love story.

I've loved Classic Who since I was a little child.

I grew up in the 90s and was introduced to it via video. It always annoys me when people act like the show was dead and a laughing stock in the 90s.

There were so many of us 90s fanboys and girls who were introduced to it through our parents on video. I might add the videos were always big sellers and they were all released on video too, whilst you could still get great Doctor Who toys like the remote controlled Dalek in the early 00s when the show hadn't been on tv for 15 years. Really quite remarkable when you think about it.

I might add that in 2002 when the British public were asked which old show they'd most like to see back, Doctor Who topped the poll, beating out Blackadder, Fawlty Towers or Dad's Army and it was among teenagers and 20 year olds that it got such a huge amount of support.

Sadly however the shows ability to endure in the 90s and 00s is often done down by the New Who, Fitzroy tavern self loathing fanboys, who like to make out everybody hated it during that time to make themselves into the heroes who saved DW.

I did always want it back during the 90s. As I have said before Tim Curry, Dylan Moran and Ron Moody were always my top choices for the Doctor in a 21st century revival. Tim based on Clue would have been the best since Tom Baker, but all 3 would have been excellent Doctors.

So baring this in mind when Eccelston and Tennant were cast I was really disappointed. Neither of them seemed like the Doctor, I hated the romantic aspect, and I hated the smugness from the production team on things like DW confidential.

I stared to warm to New Who from about series 3 on. I admit that it was because I had the biggest crush on Freema Agyeman at that time. Still it felt like they were maybe trying to make it more fun. I loved stories like Smith and Jones, The Shakespear Code, The Lazarus Experiment, Utopia, The Sound of Drums and the Dalek two parter in Manhattan.

I actually liked most of series 4 tbh. It still wasn't old Who, but I enjoyed it. Series 5 was excellent and Matt Smith was an amazing Doctor. Third best IMO. However my faith wavered in Moff as time went on.

When it got to series 7 I didn't mind it. I liked Matt and Jenna's chemistry, and some stories like the Ice Warrior one were great.

Series 8 however didn't just kill my faith in it. It made me actively despise the new Doctor Who. I did try to like series 9, but really when I watched it back I realised how much I hated it, and now I wish DW had never come back in the first place.

burrunjor wrote:

I stared to warm to New Who from about series 3 on. I admit that it was because I had the biggest crush on Freema Agyeman at that time. Still it felt like they were maybe trying to make it more fun. I loved stories like Smith and Jones, The Shakespear Code, The Lazarus Experiment, Utopia, The Sound of Drums and the Dalek two parter in Manhattan.

I agree about Freema. Even at the time I thought she was a much more desirable woman than Billie. Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks is so crazy that I can't help but dig it. I hate the pig men but the rest is OK. Smith and Jones, Human Nature/Family of Blood and Blink are solid, probably some of the best stories Nuwho ever gave us. Sound of Drums is a mixed bag. Some nice moments but overall ruined by John Simm's dreadful performance.

People here actually liked The Sound of Drums? That episode completely ruined the Master.

Billie's constant gurning and lip licking did my head. I am also a Freema fan, however. I think she was woefully mistreated and underused.

DeadManRising wrote:People here actually liked The Sound of Drums? That episode completely ruined the Master.

No, it was shit but it had a few moments I liked. I absolutely despise the "here come the drums" scene at the end, though. Simm really was atrocious.

It's such a shame, because I actually really like John Simm. If his performance in The Doctor Falls is anything to go by, then he could have been an excellent Master. But sadly, the writing squandered his potential.

I can't believe I'm actually referencing The Doctor Falls in a positive manner...

DeadManRising wrote:It's such a shame, because I actually really like John Simm. If his performance in The Doctor Falls is anything to go by, then he could have been an excellent Master. But sadly, the writing squandered his potential.

I can't believe I'm actually referencing The Doctor Falls in a positive manner...    

He is better suited to drama. I reckon Simm could have been a very scary Master but they decided to make him act like a total tit.

DeadManRising wrote:People here actually liked The Sound of Drums? That episode completely ruined the Master.

That was the good bit.

I really hope you're joking. Even Anthony Ainley at his most panto was never remotely as embarrassing as this.

People here actually liked The Sound of Drums? That episode completely ruined the Master.

I don't think so. Simm's Master actually does follow the template of the Master when you think about it.

In Classic Who the Master had one of the 3, or sometimes all of these basic motivations in every story.

1/ To conquer the galaxy as he believes under his rule that it will be a better place.

2/ To prove he is superior to the Doctor and make his most hated enemy suffer.

3/ To prolong his own miserable existence at any cost.

He also operates in one of the following 3 ways.

1/ He usually lies and greases his way to a position of power in a society like the chief of police, or as a lord, and uses that to frame the Doctor.

2/ He is hypnotic and will find some way to take people over. Delgado's hypnotic "YOU WILL OBEY ME!" the Burned Masters chant and later the Melkur, Ainley's watch that he used, and Roberts acid spit that also possessed people.

3/ He will often manipulate people. Play on their strengths, weaknesses, lie to them, get them to trust, maybe even love him so he can make them his servants. This is the most fascinating aspect of the character, the way he is like a spider, sitting on people's shoulders spitting poison in their ears.

Sometimes its already greedy and evil people like Goth we see him trick, but others its good people like Trenchard, Kassia and Chang that he manipulates.

Now Simm's Master as far as I can see followed all of these characteristics.

1/ Simm's Masters aim is to build the new Time Lord empire and establish his own universal order.

2/ Simm hates the Doctor and keeps him alive to torture him for a year "you'd delay an execution to pull the wings off a fly."

3/ Simm places himself in the highest position of authority, the Prime Minister.

4/ Simm uses hypnosis, the Archangel Network.

5/ Simm is manipulative, the way he seduces Lucy Saxon, dupes the British public, turns Martha's family against the Doctor, and frames the Doctor as a terrorists are all classic Master tactics.

He's done them all before. He turned the angry villagers on Colin in Mark of the Rani, he framed the Doctor and Jo as master criminals in Frontier in Space, and he also seduced Kassia to the point where he made her into a monster.

Yes Simm was more craaaaazzzzy on the surface, but so what. A Time Lords outer persona changes with each regeneration, and we have slowly seen the Master descend into madness as time goes on anyway?

The only areas RTD fucked up with the Masters characterisation was the stupid Drums/retcon and the gay subtext with the Doctor, and the stupid idea that the Doctor still wants to be the Masters friend, and doesn't want to kill him.

The drums is crap because it makes no sense as to why he didn't mention it in 50 years. The gay subtext is such a boring cliche that any hack writer brings into a long running villain/hero feud to make it "edgy".

Also having the Doctor not want to kill the Master undermines and ruins both of them. The Master before in stories like the Mind of Evil did score a victory against the Doctor as he not only escaped the attempt on his life, but he escaped and was free to conquer other worlds.

This made the Doctor and the Master feel like two equals who would never triumph over the other. Yes the Doctor might save the earth, but not without huge loss, and he will never even bring the Master to justice never mind kill him, which he REALLY wants too.

The season 3 3 parter could have been an excellent story if only they had done the following things.

1/ Made the Future Kind more scary.

2/ Set the main story about 300 years in the future, so they wouldn't have to do a rest button when the Master conquered the earth.

3/ Don't have the Master age the Doctor. Have the Doctor escape with Martha and work with her and Jack for a year to take him down.

4/ Had the finale involve the Doctor lead an attack on the valiant, which led to the deaths of many innocent people for the greater good. No reset button, no pixie Doctor.

5/ Not done the stupid drums bit or homoerotic shit with the Doctor.

6/ Made the weapon the Master uses to change time being a weapon that the time lords were using in the time war, that had survived and he stole from the ruins of Gallifrey. (Making it be the TARDIS was too unlikely as if an old obsolete type 40 TARDIS could be made to do THAT, why didn't the Master build a better one with his old TARDIS before.)

7/ Kept Derek Jacobi.

8/ Not had the Doctor want to spare the Master. Yes have a bit where he tells the Master that he'd rather not kill him, because they are the only two left, but be prepared too.

9/ Not had the Doctor blub like a big wuss when the Master died.

10/ Had the Master escape in the final fight, no ridiculous death scene, no books of Saxon and black mass ritual to bring him back in the next one.

Probably "The Sound Of Drums/Last Of The Timelords", though "Love And Monsters" may have dealt it a terminal blow.

I remember watching episode 1, season 1, and wondering why it was called "Rose" : when before had a story been named after a companion? Not even in McCoy's era when the Doctor's sidekick became a more narrative-centric character had that happened. However I also remember being relatively impressed with Piper's performance; not so much with Ecclestone's, who seemed miscast. Oddly by the end of s1 I felt the opposite; I felt regret that Eccles was leaving having gotten more of a grip on the role - his performance in "Dalek" seemed something of a high point for the Doctor's portrayal in the new show, whilst I then felt that Piper's character had come to be too dominant for a show like Dr Who.

On the whole I found the show fun Saturday night escapism, tho I wasn't a fan of the short stories or its lowbrow humour. All the usual things complained about on the Hive bugged me throughout too : the flatulent monsters; the pantomime acting; the swelling strings which threatened to drown out the dialogue; the pandering to youth culture; the product placement of BBC programs like the News or "The Weakest Link", and the chippy, overfamiliar dialogue which often ruined the mood of a scene.

Then "Love And Monsters" took a potentially intelligent, Buffy-esque postmodern idea and fucked it up horrendously, to the point that even Peter Kay's seemingly-indestructible reputation took a blow. But it was the Simm Master two-parter that blew it all apart for me, following the really rather impressive "Utopia". Sorry Joseph!

What's alarming is that, though I know now that much of the RTD era remains as crude, stupid and cringeworthy as ever years later (any chance the show had of luring me back was killed the moment Tennant and Tate started squawking at each other) the Moffat era still seems even worse to me because of Sir Steven's inability to write a coherent plot more than a season into any show, and ultimately whilst Davies gets the blame for letting him get like this that's a bit disingenuous - it doesn't explain why Sherlock ran into trouble in s2 just like Moffat began to decline in his second season running Nu Who.

DeadManRising wrote:I really hope you're joking. Even Anthony Ainley at his most panto was never remotely as embarrassing as this.

Even Eric Roberts kicks the shit out of the RTD's disastrous interpretation of the character.

Good afternoon everyone. I'm new here, but a lifelong fan of the old show. New Who disappointed me when I heard the phrase "anti plastic". And this sounds incredibly prudish, but also when I realised it was rather dirty minded. Classic Who is clean, New Who is dirty... I preferred the series when it had a fascinating character at the heart of the show and simply wanted to show wonderful adventures.

Not have Tennant's Doctor questioning Queen Elizabeth's "Virgin Queen" title after he'd visited her... or a companion imply he had a gun stuck up his bum. And celebrate how "weepy" The Doctor can be. Stoic fortitude was what I liked - and New Who certainly didn't want that.

And the Capaldi era, unintentionally or not, certainly made me feel unwanted as a fan. A shame. Apologies if this all sounds old fashioned, but what I liked in the old show was simply something the new show didn't want. It almost seemed to celebrate stupidity and baseness, not condemn, or at least, reprove it. The original show had wisdom and was fully aware of the dangers of totalitarianism (perhaps because of the Cold War). The new show has no urgency about that and has, in a way, become totalitarian in attitude because it tries to force us into accepting "This is right!" and to strongly condemn anyone who questions that attitude. Old Who always respected the viewers, treated them with intelligence and recognised their freedoms (freedom is so important in the original series). New Who assumes the viewers are stupid, unenlightened and desperately needs its instructions in order to live life "the right way" (i.e. RTD and Moffat's way). And it has total contempt for anyone who disagrees with its asinine philosophy. Old Who simply respected the viewers' right to choose and knew that those who weren't watching were genuinely missing something special and unique.

So I would say New Who was never ever a shadow of the original series - from episode 1.

Welcome, Bill!

You've made some very good points. Even in the Colin Baker era the writers and producers weren't nearly as smug or condescending as they are today. The modern series doesn't have any teeth and panders to people that have no real interest in the history of the show.

Hey, Bill. Welcome to the forum. It always warms my heart seeing more and more people rightfully call NuWho out for the shit stain on the Doctor Who legacy that it truly is.

I remember the end of s1 being disappointing, as if shouting and OTT melodrama were now seen as the pinnacle of sci-fi. And Rose's ending with the human Doctor clone was the proof - perhaps belatedly - I needed that the companion's desires were being given far too great importance.

Bill makes a good point about the arrogant, lecturing nature of the show - look at how the Doctor ignores the Earth's wishes in Kill The Moon, I thought we were supposed to be his favourite species?

Welcome Bill! Great post!
New Who has always been up and down. My first moment of doubt was The End of the World (looking back, Rose is pretty bad too now, but perhaps I was swept up in the euphoria of the show's return the first time). I didn't hate it, but something about it made me iffy. I mostly enjoyed series 1 though (though the end of Dalek made me laugh and cringe in equal measure) and it wasn't until series 2 that I really began to start worrying. Again, though, I thought series 3 was better... and then series 4 came along and made me join the Hive.
Even there again, though, series 5 was a big improvement and felt more like old Who than the new series had to that point, and I began to get my hopes up again. They were dashed again by series 6, and from series 7 onwards I've just begun to regard the entire enterprise with utter contempt.

I must confess to having had grave reservations about it from the very beginning, as I honestly didn't want the series to return at all and was unable to envision how it could possibly work in the modern age; I was baffled and apprehensive when I learned of its return. Thereafter, the portents grew ever-more ominous: the casting of Eccleston was (and remains) utterly perplexing, but it was the announcement that Piper was to be the companion that really signalled the probablility that this was going to be shit. My suspicions seemed validated when I saw what he was going to wear, and that ugly logo which looked as though it had been dashed off in some bored graphic design student's lunch hour. I'd heard enough rumours about the content by the time a friend showed me the leaked 'Rose' to know some of what to expect, but still nothing could have fully prepared me for how embarrassing, profoundly depressing and hateful it actually was. Most bewildering of all was the fact that I seemed at the time to be alone in my perception of this travesty; practically everyone else I knew disposed to Who either liked it or didn't think it was all that bad, whereas I regarded it as nothing less than a blight on the face of popular culture. I tuned in but once during that series - to watch the Gatiss episode - in the off-chance that the pilot had been in some way unrepresentative of what was to come. Suffice to say, I henceforth endeavoured to avoid this shitshow like the plague, which proved to be somewhat challenging, given the blanket publicity and plaudits it received, and the epedemic of popularity it generated. And to think: at this tender juncture, I had yet to even be aware of the very existence of one David Tennant...