Donald Trump Thread

Mr. Happy wrote:Trump threatens to use US trade talks to force NHS to pay more for drugs

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/15/trump-threatens-use-us-trade-talks-force-nhs-pay-drugs/

What a fucking dullard.

Nothing to do with the ridiculous price of the drugs in the first place then...

Still, it might push us towards the Cuban model of developing out own state generics instead of buying from greedy American arsehole companies.

Donald Trump cannot block anyone on Twitter, court rules
A New York judge rules @realDonaldTrump is a presidential, not personal, account and blocking violates the first amendment

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/23/trump-twitter-block-ruling-court-public-forum-account

Mr. Happy wrote:Donald Trump cannot block anyone on Twitter, court rules
A New York judge rules @realDonaldTrump is a presidential, not personal, account and blocking violates the first amendment

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/23/trump-twitter-block-ruling-court-public-forum-account

That's fair. It's not as if anyone can totally avoid Trump's odious oratory/messaging on news websites, social media and the tv.

What do you call a president that empirically improves the quality of life for the citizens of their country; is bringing a 70 year war - previously considered insoluble - to an end; and who promotes democracy, where the people vote based on policy rather than identity, and corruption in Politics and Media are uprooted? Oh, and who has done more in sub-two years than Obama did in Eight?

That's right - 'Literally Hitler.'

TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote:What do you call a president that empirically improves the quality of life for the citizens of their country; is bringing a 70 year war - previously considered insoluble - to an end; and who promotes democracy, where the people vote based on policy rather than identity, and corruption in Politics and Media are uprooted? Oh, and who has done more in sub-two years than Obama did in Eight?

That's right - 'Literally Hitler.'

Are you American?

What you are seeing (economy wise) are the results of Obama era activities kicking in. And no matter what Trump has done, it will always be nothing compared to the divide, hatred and hostility he has perpetuated and promoted towards anyone who is remotely.

Genkimonk wrote: Are you American?

No.

Genkimonk wrote: What you are seeing (economy wise) are the results  of Obama era activities kicking in

Most of the time I would expect this to be sarcasm - only I know it isn't. I suppose it's just a coincidence that Obama's 'activities' - whatever you have in mind when saying that - just ... waited ... to come into effect almost immediately after his term finished. Then when Trump exerts his influence, and tears away essentially all of Obama's legacy - so little as that was: and we see results. The mental acrobatics required to make believe that this was Obama's doing are truly impressive.

Genkimonk wrote: And no matter what Trump has done, it will always be nothing compared to the divide, hatred and hostility he has perpetuated and promoted towards anyone who is remotely.

Divide? America was already divided, Trump just gave the unrepresented representation. Yet, are the people perpetrating the divide the president and his supporters? Or those who refuse to accept the results of the election, who refuse to accept Trump and his supporters as being anything more than degenerates? And the media which is not so much interested in informing the public as rallying them, with outright lies and incessant hate, against the president?

Hatred and hostility? Against whom? Suggesting that Trump has encouraged hated based on race, sex, or sexuality is laughable.
Against Islam? Is hatred of an ideology a bad thing? An ideology that is explicitly incompatible with western values, that breeds through indoctrination. An argument on Islam would take rather longer than I am willing to in this post, moving on.

What I will tell you is that humans are not reasonable creatures. They are capable of reason, but when they are to choose between a reasonable answer and one that appeals to emotion, or their previous belief - they will, almost always, choose the latter. You've built yourself a wall around your dogma to prevent cognitive dissonance, and I do not expect it to yield.

TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote:
Most of the time I would expect this to be sarcasm - only I know it isn't. I suppose it's just a coincidence that Obama's 'activities' - whatever you have in mind when saying that - just ... waited ... to come into effect almost immediately after his term finished. Then when Trump exerts his influence, and tears away essentially all of Obama's legacy - so little as that was: and we see results. The mental acrobatics required to make believe that this was Obama's doing are truly impressive.

Change doesn't happen over night. It takes time for things to happen. Some of his policies only kicked in after he left. I say we should wait at least another year and a half to see Trumps impact. Especially the debt issue given his tax cut and how that will eventually damage the economy.

TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote: Divide? America was already divided, Trump just gave the unrepresented representation. Yet, are the people perpetrating the divide the president and his supporters? Or those who refuse to accept the results of the election, who refuse to accept Trump and his supporters as being anything more than degenerates? And the media which is not so much interested in informing the public as rallying them, with outright lies and incessant hate, against the president?

America is the most racist country in the western world. It is a country based on fear and they always need an enemy. Trump knows this and is using it to his advantage. Even this week he has backed that fat women's comments about black people by attacking the network and not her. And let's not forget his inability to back down from the Park 5 who he called to be killed even after they were found innocent. (Park 5 involved a group of 5 black men wrongly accused of murder in New York. Trump took out ad campaigns calling for the death sentence of them. They were all found not guilty)

TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote: Hatred and hostility? Against whom? Suggesting that Trump has encouraged hated based on race, sex, or sexuality is laughable.
Against Islam? Is hatred of an ideology a bad thing? An ideology that is explicitly incompatible with western values, that breeds through indoctrination. An argument on Islam would take rather longer than I am willing to in this post, moving on.

American evangelicalism is arguably just as bad. How many murders have happened across America caused by right wing christian idology.Gays beaten up, suicides caused by forced conversion or inability to accept difference. Westbro allowed to do what they do. America is a sick country and the cause of that is the American interpretation of christianity. I also think the use of religion in general in America is wrong and simply a tool to control the public.

Trump is merely a symptom of the bigger problem. America itself.

Genkimonk wrote:
Change doesn't happen over night. It takes time for things to happen. Some of his policies only kicked in after he left. I say we should wait at least another year and a half to see Trumps impact. Especially the debt issue given his tax cut and how that will eventually damage the economy.

Which policies? This is a joke. Let's say the doctor gives you a pill - you take it for eight years. Throughout those eight years you feel pretty shitty. Then he decides to give you a different pill - almost immediately you feel better. You continue to feel better for the next two years and onwards. Is it really a logical inference that the first pill was just waiting around ... dormant ... and that that was responsible for your recovery? Everything you're saying is illogical, backed with nothing.

Genkimonk wrote: America is the most racist country in the western world. It is a country based on fear and they always need an enemy. Trump knows this and is using it to his advantage. Even this week he has backed that fat women's comments about black people by attacking the network and not her. And let's not forget his inability to back down from the Park 5 who he called to be killed even after they were found innocent. (Park 5 involved a group of 5 black men wrongly accused of murder in New York. Trump took out ad campaigns calling for the death sentence of them. They were all found not guilty)

Most racist country in the western world? Because that’s something you can measure, isn’t it?
A country based on fear is likewise conjecture. They always need an enemy? That’s not America, that’s human beings – you are no exception, evidently.
Trump is using this in his favour? Well that’s funny … because none of Trumps policies have anything to do with race.
I don’t even know what you’re referring to after this point – I don’t pay attention to ‘outrage pieces’ by the always uninformative media.
On ‘Park Five’ note that when someone you can empathise with, especially a woman, is raped and viciously assaulted – it tends to enrage said person, a lot. That’s all there is too it. It’s a side effect of human empathy and bias of concern. You have expressed this in a misleading manner, as I’m sure it has been expressed to you – it certainly has nothing to do with race.

What I would affirm is that your ability to reason is poisoned. This is common. You will not reason to conclusion, you already have your conclusion. That conclusion you have inherited, whether from friends, family, idols – not from reason. Further, your innate human biases make it very difficult to break out of your dogma. Just know that your concept of ‘truth’ is unsound. Disregard the influences, disregard the dogma, and think for yourself. It’s a rare thing, but you will be better for it.

Genkimonk wrote:
American evangelicalism is arguably just as bad. How many murders have happened across America caused by right wing christian idology.Gays beaten up, suicides caused by forced conversion or inability to accept difference. Westbro allowed to do what they do. America is a sick country and the cause of that is the American interpretation of christianity. I also think the use of religion in general in America is wrong and simply a tool to control the public.

Trump is merely a symptom of the bigger problem. America itself.

Arguably? You can argue it, sure, but it’s completely baseless.
Firstly, it’s less strict. The Qur’an is a pretty concise book, not so riddled with contradictions as – say – the bible. Its doctrine is authoritative and leaves little room for interpretation. That doctrine is militant. Understandable being that the entire religion is the realization of the power fantasy of one, truly despicable man. It is designed to conquer, and to dominate.
American Evangelicalism is an interpretation of the teaching of Jesus, a fairly decent man by any accounts, and further from centuries of thought from various other philosophers compiled into a book, the Bible. A book that demands interpretation, and yet is evidently not militant in nature.

Being that Evangelicalism influences about 25% of the US population, and that the US has the third largest population in the world, and that the media is more than willing to report on crimes that support their ideology – you’d expect to hear of such crimes now and again. Probably isn’t many, still, or you’d likely be seeing the statistics all around.

And it all falters in comparison to what happens in Islamic communities … do I even need to expound? Small numbers of people assaulted for their sexuality? How about being executed, or at least imprisoned? Occasional suicides that could be considered the result of forced conversion? How about execution for Apostasy? Inability to accept difference? How about the Qur’an’s constant insistence that non-Muslims are ‘enemies’, and all that comes with that?
Which should we fear, a cold, or a cancer?

And yes, America is such a problem in the world. A country that is built on freedom – such an awful thing where the rest of the West alternates between authoritarianism and self-destruction. A country that persistently breed innovation, that makes for real human progress. A country that stands against the insanity that has taken the west – self-hate, censorship, blindness to reason.

The idea that America is about freedom is total BS. They perpetuated slavery long after Europe gave up on it. They then used capitalism as a means of keeping the working man in their place, and even used archetecutre to divide socity, be it keeping blacks from whites or rich from poor. John Moses' bridges in New York spring to mind.

America is all about the rich and powerful, and doesn't give a fuck about anyone unless using them for canon fodder.

It does fuck all to promote freedom and does everything it can to interfear with the affairs of others. Things are only "free" when it is acceptable to the American view.

And I am so God damn fucking sick of how America culture corrodes everything it touches. Look at the damage in UK, especially in terms of workers rights and politics. When the cunts here embrace American culture and ideas, we all fucking suffer. Even in Japan too, and it is only getting worse.

Americanism is not freedom. It is dominance and control of others.

Genkimonk wrote:The idea that America is about freedom is total BS. They perpetuated slavery long after Europe gave up on it. They then used capitalism as a means of keeping the working man in their place, and even used archetecutre to divide socity, be it keeping blacks from whites or rich from poor. John Moses' bridges in New York spring to mind.

America is about freedom of its citizens, which slaves weren't regarded as being. The point is irrelevant since slavery has been abolished. That covered, America is absolutely about freedom – such was its foundation, and such remains the foundation of its laws and culture.
They used capitalism as a means of sustaining a working society, as has every other functioning country in the world.
I already addressed the concept of ‘racism’.

Genkimonk wrote:America is all about the rich and powerful, and doesn't give a fuck about anyone unless using them for canon fodder.

It does fuck all to promote freedom and does everything it can to interfear with the affairs of others. Things are only "free" when it is acceptable to the American view.

The rich and powerful care about themselves, and … being rich and powerful – they have the influence. The poor don’t care about anybody else either, everybody only cares about their ‘tribe’ and may only pretend otherwise to gain some ego points.
Also … there’s no alternative. There will always be a hierarchy because such is human nature.

They intervene occasionally for the same reason any state does – for personal gain, perhaps coupled with some moral satisfaction. Being a great power ‘intervention’ is a pretty standard affair, it isn’t a bad thing nor necessarily a good thing.

Genkimonk wrote:And I am so God  damn fucking sick of how America culture corrodes everything it touches. Look at the damage in UK, especially in terms of workers rights and politics. When the cunts here embrace American culture and ideas, we all fucking suffer. Even in Japan too, and it is only getting worse.

Can you think of a culture that has had a better effect on what it touches? The only real competitor in the West is Islam – I’ll take Americanism, thanks. And what kind of suffering do you have in mind? Are you talking about the mind-washing celebrity worship? Social-media approved narcissism? The strange phenomenon of the population siding with the corporation and corrupt media over original thought? Yes, if you haven’t noticed – this is not the America that voted for Trump.

Genkimonk wrote:Americanism is not freedom. It is dominance and control of others.

A nice finishing quote … except it isn’t – because it’s based on nothing.

Indeed, your criticisms throughout this thread would be far better levelled at the kind of America represented by the Clintons and the Obamas. A truly corrupt state, more an oligarchy than a democracy. Enforced by the media, and by the airhead celebrities – so out of touch with the public, yet so willing to misuse use their massive influence to support things they don’t even understand. Independent thought is punished, the opposition is demonized.
Interventionism? Look at Libya. A culture of regression? Look at Clinton’s voter base – that retain neoteny … seemingly indefinitely, their life revolving around Social Media, hashtags, water pistol emotes, watching other man-children eating Tide Pods on YouTube and wonder how many ‘likes’ they would get if they did the same. An educational system that teaches shame rather than knowledge, so that those that the top – with oh so many skeletons in their closets – can sleep better at night. Where the ultimate evil is in making a joke, and yet Islam – a religion built entirely for dominance, that revels in hate, war, oppression, and all the -ists you’ve ever screamed about – is called a ‘religion of peace and tolerance’ and criticizing it might just get you thrown into prison.

And through it, people who are so far imprisoned by their own misguided beliefs that they think Trump is the problem.

Fortunately that America has lost, and we can hope it stays that way.

We are just going to have to respectfully disagree with each other on this. From your perspective, you seem to think that there is a good side to the culture and that Donald Trump can do well. From my perspective, American culture represent a hellof a lot that is wrong with western society and that be it Trump or whoever, they will just cause more damage to the rest of the world.

I don't blame US culture myself, more ourselves for following it so blindly some times

Markets all around the world are recovering and Argentina and Japan are doing better than the US.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/24/argentinas-president-macri-powers-biggest-stock-market-boom-in-world.html

Stock Market’s Rise, Lauded by
Trump, Lags the Gains Under Obama

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/05/business/trump-first-year.html

Trump is irrelevant to how the economy is performing. When the 2008 crisis started by the short selling in the US the fault of Blair? No, but our unpreparedness for it was or more specifically the fault of Brown. Generations of politicians have failed to control the boom and bust of economies. Why do we still insist they are relevant?

In fact, by the standards Trump used to trash the Obama era in his speech to Congress, the Trump era has been another economic nightmare. “Ninety-four million Americans are out of the labor force!” he complained last year. That was true at the time, if you included students, retirees and the disabled, but today, 95.5 million Americans are out of the labor force. “Over 43 million Americans are on food stamps,” Trump said last year. This year, it’s still over 42 million. “Our trade deficit in goods last year was nearly $800 billion!” Trump marveled. Under Trump, the trade deficit is increasing.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/29/trump-plus-one-did-he-keep-his-promises-216544

Even Greece's economy is now growing faster than the UK

http://uk.businessinsider.com/greek-economy-now-growing-faster-than-the-uk-2017-9

They had help from the EU, whereas, we had the referendum which resulted in us having a downgraded credit rating and weaker pound. Should we blame May or Cameroon? Brexit was Cameroon's choice. He left his child in the pub why would anybody trust him to run a country?

May is a weakened Prime Minister who an equally inept Corbyn failed to dethrone in the last election. Nobody wants May's job after Brexit and the DUP alliance

There they are again, threatening to withdraw https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-dup-arlene-foster-customs-theresa-may-a8381276.html

It's a joke. They have also sought to undermine the abortion result in Ireland

People are complaining about the right a lot at the moment but I think that's a distraction. But if the right are succeeding it's cos the Left is failing. Why has the left failed? Corbyn has a lot to answer for there.

Pretending that the President hasn’t a significant impact on the economy is blatantly untrue. The policies he institutes directly affect the nation’s economy, holistically – how can you deny this?
No the Economic Crash of 2008 wasn’t the result of the politicians … but what does that prove? ‘The president doesn’t have absolute control over the economy’ doesn’t equate to, ‘the president doesn’t have any significant influence over the economy.’ I think you can see that this is erroneous logic.

Likewise the fact that some other national economies are improving doesn’t equate to a non-significance of the US’ growth.

TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote:Pretending that the President hasn’t a significant impact on the economy is blatantly untrue. The policies he institutes directly affect the nation’s economy, holistically – how can you deny this?
No the Economic Crash of 2008 wasn’t the result of the politicians … but what does that prove? ‘The president doesn’t have absolute control over the economy’ doesn’t equate to, ‘the president doesn’t have any significant influence over the economy.’ I think you can see that this is erroneous logic.

Likewise the fact that some other national economies are improving doesn’t equate to a non-significance of the US’ growth.

Global recovery (not what I would call a few) https://www.ft.com/content/532f1142-4163-11e8-93cf-67ac3a6482fd

As for Trump having no effect, maybe I overstated things. Little effect - if that changes anything - and the point I was trying to make is that he doesn't always have any control over things, hence my point about 'global recovery'. Given Trumps business record of approaching near bankruptcy at times (but never actually achieving it cos the banks wouldn't let him go bust) https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/nyregion/donald-trump-atlantic-city.html

I don't have him down as an economic genius, he got lucky.

You accuse me of pretending but I would similarly accuse you of dissembling if you are trying to tell me there is a clear line to be drawn between the effects of Obama and Trump. I don't think you are dissembling, however. I think it's a much more complicated issue than either of us can address adequately.

Could you even begin to attempt going through all Obama's and Trump's policies and weighing up which ones are still having an effect, which ones aren't which ones haven't kicked in yet and which ones will have a negative or no effect?

Economies are notoriously boom and bust and near impossible to predict at times or stock broking would be easy, so I don't think it's unfair to say that you see Trump as having an overly deterministic effect. Would you even deny that the improvement in the economy started under Obama?

Yes, a president can have a significant effect on an economy, anybody can fuck it up, but getting it right is hard and that started under Obama

And just to show you how much of a role luck can play

Parrot beats investors in South Korean stock market contest
A five-year-old parrot in South Korea has proved smarter than human investors in a stock investment contest.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5988799/Parrot-beats-investors-in-South-Korean-stock-market-contest.html

Yes, I'm not going to pretend that I have sufficient knowledge of Economics to give a confident answer, but neither are you, and in fairness neither are economists.

My past argument still stands, and I think your reference to 'luck' is rather one of cognitive bias. Trump has had his hands in hundreds of businesses over his lifetime - being that investments always carry an element of chance the fact that a small number have not succeeded is not particularly meaningful. Likewise, over such a sample size an appeal to 'luck' is downright pseudoscientific.

Without perhaps unattainable insight the simplest and most proper explanation would be that Trump is, as least indirectly, responsible for the economic state of his country. He has the power, the influence, his actions can be seen as carrying as a reasonable consequence positive economic effect, and he has the temporal element. I do think you're being somewhat blind if you continue to deny this.

Former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen likely to cooperate as his attorneys leave case, sources say

https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-lawyer-michael-cohen-cooperate-attorneys-leave-case/story?id=55861988

The South Korean government and US military both learned that Trump had agreed to Kim Jong-un's demand to end joint military exercises when they saw it on the TV news. Neither had heard it officially an hour after that.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-south-korea_us_5b1550ace4b0d5e89e21ed27

Mr. Herpes wrote:Former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen likely to cooperate as his attorneys leave case, sources say

https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-lawyer-michael-cohen-cooperate-attorneys-leave-case/story?id=55861988

This could get super tasty given the audio recordings made by Trump's chief legal thug.

This is going around a lot on Twitter

RT: True fact: North Korea previously pledged denuclearization in...

1985
1992
1994
2002
2003
2005
2006
2008
2010
2011
2012
And 2016.

Each pledge was a lie.

If you believe any promise Kim made to Trump, I have five failed casinos in Atlantic City to sell you.
-Jeff Tiedrich

I think those statistics are misleading and don't tell the whole story, see the Chomsky quote below

Chomsky on North Korea & Iran: Historical Record Shows U.S. Favors Violence Over Diplomacy

That was basically the agreement, 2005. Didn’t last very long. The Bush administration instantly undermined it. It dismantled the consortium that was supposed to provide the reactor. And it immediately imposed—pressured—and when the U.S. pressures, it means it happens—banks to block North Korean financial transactions, including perfectly legitimate trade.

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/4/26/chomsky_on_north_korea_iran_historical

Boofer wrote:

Mr. Herpes wrote:Former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen likely to cooperate as his attorneys leave case, sources say

https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-lawyer-michael-cohen-cooperate-attorneys-leave-case/story?id=55861988

This could get super tasty given the audio recordings made by Trump's chief legal thug.  

The pardon will arrive in 3... 2... 1...

It could also be that the lawyers are leaving because they won't get paid any more. The Trump Campaign was paying for at least some of that (to the tune of almost $250,000) which was already pretty shaky, legally speaking.