Dispicable yanks murder children in terrorism raid, then gloat about it.

While I understand the head of ISIS was likely to meet his end by the barrel of a gun, I find it absolutely sickening that the fucking yanks are praising the fact that the kids died in the raid as well.

I think it is absolutely disgusting that these cunts allowed these kids to be in a situation that would cause their deaths. There is no excuse for allowing kids to be used as shields. And for Trump to go on TV and gloat about killing the head of ISIS AND his kids is just a new fucking low. America really has no shame.

You don't gloat about murdering kids. It wasn't their fault who their father was.

I don't think you can call it 'murder' if it happens as a by-product of war against an enemy that needs to be destroyed.

Maybe Baghdadi's kids were innocent. But just as easily maybe they actually were destined to become raised by him to be every bit as evil and sick as that scumbag and his followers. I'm not saying it justifies bombing them, but it's one reason I'm reluctant to sentimentalize them as innocent victims either.

And that's why I'm not going to judge the cheering Americans. Because this is what happens in war. The cheering Americans didn't put those kids in harms way and then antagonize the West into bombing them, ISIS did that. I'm not going to deflect moral outrage anywhere else but on them sick ISIS punks who started this barbaric war!

Wait a minute, I read the news report and it says Baghdadi himself killed his own children by blowing himself up with them.

So why are you being disingenuous and saying it was 'murder' on the Yanks' part when they didn't actually do the killing?

Tanmann wrote:by-product

C'mon dude, that's cold.

Tanmann wrote:Maybe Baghdadi's kids were innocent. But just as easily maybe they actually were destined to become raised by him to be every bit as evil and sick as that scumbag and his followers. I'm not saying it justifies bombing them, but it's one reason I'm reluctant to sentimentalize them as innocent victims either.

At this point they likely would have been under the age of criminal liability, and there was still a reasonable chance that other events could have interceded and changed their lives. You can't murder kids on the premise that they might become evil sociopaths - no matter what the odds are.

It's certainly not a reason to suspend your compassion either.

Did you never read The Minority Report?

Tanmann wrote:Wait a minute, I read the news report and it says Baghdadi himself killed his own children by blowing himself up with them.

So why are you being disingenuous and saying it was 'murder' on the Yanks' part when they didn't actually do the killing?

Your first reaction is still pretty callous though.

Bagdadi was scum.

His kids didn't deserve their upbringing, nor the manner in which they died.

Cunnus Maximus wrote:

Tanmann wrote:by-product

C'mon dude, that's cold.

Well, 'cold' only in the sense that I think the facts of what happened should not be described in emotive purple prose as being 'murder', as if to imply it was just a malicious act by evil American soldiers who weren't even trying to exercise better judgment in difficult combat circumstances.

All I'm saying is it wasn't an act of intentional murder, and I'm a bit troubled by the emotive distortion that suggests it was, to enfoster the most uncharitable and unforgiving interpretation against the soldiers involved (who as it turns out, didn't even pull the trigger) to almost let the terrorist antagonists who forced the confrontation to come about, completely off the hook by comparison.

Cunnus Maximus wrote:At this point they likely would have been under the age of criminal liability, and there was still a reasonable chance that other events could have interceded and changed their lives. You can't murder kids on the premise that they might become evil sociopaths - no matter what the odds are.

It's certainly not a reason to suspend your compassion either.

Okay, I was looking at the case from some distance when I posted that.

At that time, my knee-jerk feeling was that I'd been too long upset about the children already killed by ISIS to go along with getting angry at the Americans now. If America did kill innocents in the crossfire, at least it was in the cause of ending this war, not keeping it going in the way ISIS has.

Looking closer into the case, I appreciate more that it was horrible, how those kids were condemned to a senseless death that their father wouldn't let them escape, but it seems the only way to have saved those three children was to have gone straight for a headshot at their scumbag father sooner. And I can better appreciate Monk's point that the strike on him should have been done when the children were out of harm's way, even if it'd be a chivalry ISIS never extended to its own victims before striking.

But, in terms of whether the Americans and Trump should temper their reaction, I don't think it's wrong of them to cheer the death of the enemy himself. If they should spare a thought for the innocent children killed too (although frequently, historically, most people don't when it comes to war), I don't feel right telling them they have to see the children as definitely as innocent as ISIS' victims and needing to be mourned just as much, when the truth is, that might not have been the path they were on at all. If they should be mourned, they should be mourned sincerely and not made out to be the hope of redemptive innocence born in evil they possibly weren't ever going to be (at least not if Baghdadi had his way). Hence why I think the Americans aren't entirely wrong to treat the calls to mourn them in outrage at their own nation somewhat dubiously if not suspiciously, even if it leads them to ultimately not mourn them at all.

I also struggle to get behind the implied rage at the Americans for this, when it seems to be the real mistake they made was not killing Baghdadi sooner somewhere else. Either way their deaths are down to having a scumbag father, more than it ever is down to the US.

Didn't Trump say he died whimpering and crying like a dog? Or words to that effect. Seems odd behaviour for a man so committed to a cause that he blew himself up with a suicide vest.
I think Trump just makes it up for the John Wayne effect.

As for the kids, well yes if they were just children, it's disgusting to gloat about their deaths. But this is Trump. What else can you expect?

Murder is a very emotive word because it describes a particularly culpable and socially unacceptable form of killing. It would be difficult to equate war collateral to murder. It's sophistry.

Aren't there better things for you to be outraged about in like ... every other culture on earth?

I do like you though, Genkimonk. And your strange transparently racist anti-American rants do bring some colour to the forum.

Indeed.

I'm under no illusions that America are any kind of world saints. But it does seem to me that anti-Americanism has often taken on a cultish, distorted and sinister life (or rather, agenda) of its own.

I remember it in the post-9/11 period where the anti-war left seemed determined to justify hating Bush more than Bin Laden, and I remember feeling suspicious of that attitude of the time, even as I felt kind of cowed into going along with it at the same time.

As much as I'd love the see the end of Islamism, I personally think American interventionism has been the impetus behind a lot of shit. They've probably done more harm than good. One of Trump's few good decisions was to gtfo.

I personally blame America for most of the conflicts going on in the world. I also find the culture to be odious in its total disregard for others.

As someone working abroad, I have seen time after time yanks treating other cultures like utter shit, even in those cultures home countries. Now, I know not all are bad, but I do think that American culture does have a strong hatred towards anything not American. I feel the culture makes it hard for Americans to adapt to other cultures. And I feel it is these qualities which has caused it to become the enemy of so many countries.