When did Doctor Who begin to truly die?

TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote:Though I didn't hate the earlier NuWho seasons, even as part of the earlier series, it was definitely the 'beginning' of the decline that eventually brought us the shite that was late Moffatt and Chibnall.

It was quite gradual. S1 was ultimately inoffensive imo and you can forgive it for making changes as it tries to adapt to modern standards of television.

But they stuck with those changes and it eventually became clear that they'd forgotten what Doctor Who was supposed to be.

I would say there were things I hated and found unpleasant in Series 1 (chiefly the Doctor's characterization), and points where it looked like they weren't even trying (Aliens of London), but also things I loved, and I think I would broadly agree with you that at that point, the new show was still feet-finding and could've probably gone either way, and could've instead built on the best elements of the season (The Unquiet Dead, Dalek) rather than the crap to give us something closer to the best of Robert Holmes or Big Finish.

It looked like that would sadly only happen had RTD stepped down and left with Eccleston, and let one of the season's better writers take over.

Then again I read somewhere that the BBC had sent RTD some memos saying they worried at the time The Unquiet Dead was too slow for the mainstream audience, and wanted him to avoid stories like that in future. So maybe that's why we never got episodes like that again, and why Moffat gradually started to go off the rails too.

There wasn't really one point. Its been a long, slow process, but Capaldi represents the point of no return.

As many have pointed out the 96 movie, though not as toe curlingly awful as the 21st century series, still marks the beginning of the self loathing fanboys taking over and trying to turn the Doctor into something its not.

The Eccelston era marked the beginning of the Doctor Who is all about change crap.

Tennant drew in the Claudia Boleyn, 5 Who Fans, Mr Tardis crowd of idiots who took over the fandom.

Matt Smith was really our last stand. Moffat initially tried to take it back to the Classic era, and he could have gotten away with it. The public responded well to Matt, despite the slight drop off, and it enjoyed greater popularity abroad than in Tennant's time.

Still Moffat's cowardice and self loathing fanboyism ultimately resulted in the Capaldi era. From Pissy Missy on it was gone. Jodie if anything is a blessing in disguise as she will ultimately cause more people to turn away from the 21st century version completely.

burrunjor wrote:Moffat initially tried to take it back to the Classic era

I don't believe for a minute that he ever tried to do that or wanted to do that. Despite whatever small changes in approach he made, to be seen to be different to RTD, it was to distract from the fact that it was still loaded with banal shit.
It was all smoke and mirrors, like his scripts.

I think it was when Bill left. Regeneration, what a dumbass fucking idea.

It was alright until they went into the junkyard. I find it difficult to believe that Ian lost his torch on a cramped BBC set.

burrunjor wrote:There wasn't really one point. Its been a long, slow process, but Capaldi represents the point of no return.

As many have pointed out the 96 movie, though not as toe curlingly awful as the 21st century series, still marks the beginning of the self loathing fanboys taking over and trying to turn the Doctor into something its not.

The Eccelston era marked the beginning of the Doctor Who is all about change crap.

Well, I think maybe this was not so much the case in the TV Movie. I think it was more down to Fox drones who wanted an Americanized product that turned the Doctor into more of the romantic hero and wanted the love story angle.

The self-loathing fanboyism of RTD and Moffat, I would say was probably a backlash reaction to Ian Levine, whose own fannish influence was seen (with some justification IMO) as instrumental in helping kill the old show in the 80's.

(I don't get that sense from the TV Movie that they even knew of, or cared about Levine that much)

It took a while for me to realize, but the reason RTD's sycophants cheered him on in his wanton slaughter of sacred cows, and his cheap digs at Levine, is because they convinced themselves he was the kind of showrunner the series had long needed to completely torch the possibility of an Ian Levine influence of the show again. Essentially RTD was seen as a savior because he was seen as the kind of creative overseer who was prepared to effectively burn Moscow to save Russia.

By around 2007/8, even I started to excuse and rationalize it that way and believe and buy into that view of him. Perhaps because my rage at him was getting exhausted. Perhaps because the fan propaganda and pecking order was just that strong.