When did Doctor Who begin to truly die?

I’ve noticed some conflicting opinions on this forum concerning this topic, and so thought I’d do a poll on it. Which era marked the death of Doctor Who going forward?

I’ve ommited any era prior to and including Hinchcliffe due to said eras being generally acclaimed by all of fandom, and have ommited the Chibnall era due to the fact that Classic fandom seems to universally agree that the series died prior to that point.

The TV Movie began the process of turning the show into something it wasn't to pander to the lamestream. New Who just concluded that process.

In spite of my dissatisfaction with early NuWho, I didn't feel at the time that the show was dead, i.e. 100% beyond redemption. I maintain that a lasting return to form was still possible up until the ideological takeover of the Capaldi era, but given that it didn't happen, that's beside the point. When all is said and done, televised Doctor Who hasn't been truly great since the McCoy era, and the TV Movie was the point at which the series jumped the shark. While Paul McGann was an excellent choice, the decision to make his Doctor a snogging, romantic, half-human hybrid in an effort to pander to mainstream America foreshadowed exactly the sort of desperate, insecure trend-chasing that would lead to NuWho's demise.

The Davison era.

I think the show first began to lose its bite (in the main) after Horror of Fang Rock, and technically the elements of the Davison era were first set in stone under Bidmead, but even so, the groundwork done by City of Death or Logopolis could've easily still led to something beautiful and compelling had the show gone another way.

Sadly the Davison era just seemed to take the show, its lead hero, and a lot of its past lore, down a prolonged, completely doomed route.

Despite Davison's best efforts, and one or two exceptional scripts by Clegg and Holmes, it really was where the show began to degenerate into a zombified, soulless state.

Admittedly sometimes it had a compelling hauntology to it.

Initially with Season 19 the era seemed to be done with enough momentum to get away with this, but when the lethargy sets in with Season 20, that's when the rot becomes apparent. It's where Ian Levine began to demand the show suit his image of a pious, humourless religious text it never was, and effectively turn the show into a cult, JNT's unpardonably cynical fan-pandering is shot through by horrible execution, and where Saward's misanthropy began to creep in and corrupt the show's base-code.

The show was probably kind of still just about intact on The Five Doctors, but for me Warriors of the Deep was the final nail of disgrace that made the era and its Doctor utterly unsalvageable, and proved that no-one making the show even knew what they're doing anymore or had anything but contempt for the audience.

Frankly it's where the show first began to turn from a fun bit of thrilling, imaginative hobbyist entertainment into, frankly a cult based on treating the show and the Doctor with an insipid, messianic piety (where previously the Doctor was just a common sense hero), and it's remained one ever since.

Graham Williams era for me, but not immediately.
I'm fine with most of S15. For the most part, the tone has't got too silly yet.  Fang Rock and Fendahl are particular highlights. The Invisible Enemy is still good. Apart from the introduction of the tin dog, it's no worse than some of the lesser stories of the Hinchliffe era. Similarly, The Sunmakers may not be Holmes' greatest story, but again it's still fine. I still class it as a good story.
Obviously Underworld is dreadfully dull and probably the weakest of the season, but it's not as though there haven't been dull stories before, so I don't see this as something endemic to the Williams era alone.
Which leaves us with The Invasion of Time, which I always find such a let down and a bigger sign of worse to come. I'll save a proper critique of the story, because this discussion is kind of prompting me to re-evaluate it, as it's been a long time. But were it not for Underworld being particularly boring, then I'd have no hesitation in nominating it worst of the season.

My rankings and scores for S15:

Image of the Fendhal - 8/10
Horror of Fang Rock - 8/10
The Sunmakers - 7/10
The Invisible Enemy - 7/10
The Invasion of Time - 5/10
Underworld - 4/10

Total season score: 65%

Whilst S15 was a sign of things to come, the rot really sets in when Douglas Adams' influence further undermines the overall tone of the program, and combined with Tom's ego starting to go off the rails, things start to err slightly more towards the asinine.
Even so, I can cope with most of the Season, except for The Pirate Planet, although it does have that beautiful fleck of gold in the turd, with Tom's: "WHAT'S IT FOR!!" moment, showing he could still produce great moments of drama when the script allowed for it.
For me, Stones of Blood' is by far the best of the season, capturing the essence of the Hinchcliffe era (for 2 episodes at least) one final time.
The rest of the season is not so much bad, as just average, with nothing else really standing out. I think Power of Kroll perhaps just about has enough going for it to scrape an above average score and second place. Leaving Androids of Tara to limp ahead of Armageddon Factor on the basis that at least it's not long. Shame that Holmes' only other script (Ribos) only really shines in Ep.1.

My rankings and scores for S16:

Stones of Blood - 7/10
Power of Kroll - 6/10
Androids of Tara - 5/10
Armageddon Factor - 5/10
The Ribos Operation - 4/10
The Pirate Planet - 3/10

Total season score: 55%

Season 17 is where things start to go seriously downhill. The level of clowning from in S17 (and 18) ia at its height, (cue: the inspiration for Tennant) and the introduction of Romana II brings a level of smug superiority between the two leads that had never been seen before. And it would take NuWho to escalate it to level beyond that as we see with Tennant and Piper.
To be fair to Doug Adams, his stories aren't worst of the Season, but the overall level of quality is another drop down from S16, as S16 was a drop from S15, and in turn S15 was a drop from S14.

My rankings and scores for S17:

Destiny of the Daleks - 6/10
Shada - 5/10
City of Death - 5/10
Horns of Nimon - 4/10
Creature from the Pit - 4/10
Nightmare of Eden - 3/10

Total season score: 38%

And I know it's not a Williams season, but just for good measure:

My rankings and scores for S18:

State of Decay - 6/10
Keeper of Traken - 5/10
The Leisure Hive - 5/10
Full Circle - 4/10
Meglos - 3/10
Warrior's Gate - 2/10
Logopolis - 1/10

Total season score: 37%

I certainly don't think it was during the classic era. Capaldi was where it died for me personally. I just get depressed thinking about how we were all lied to.


"Peter Capaldi's Doctor Who episodes have been compared to the "classic" era of the show."

"Ben Wheatley - who is directing the first two instalments of series eight - told io9 that the show is "going back to that style"."

Porkies.

It did not die during the classic run. I can point to eras i wasn't too keen on but at the end of the day it was still Who to me.

I liked the McGann movie aswell. There was the romantic elelement in that film but i always thought that was the adrenalin of regeneration and was not a necessary element of any series that flowed from that pilot. After all he dumped Grace at the end of the film. The half human thing never bothered me and inmho it was never confirmed. It was just the masters observation. A future story could easily dismiss it by saying the Master was wrong - misunderstood what he saw.

But with Rose it fell gravely ill. With early Tenant its cheeks got a bit rosier but then slipped into life support. Early Matt gave it a new lease of life then back on life support. With Capaldi it wavered constantly between life support and rude health. I liked Peter's last season and he personally was brilliant and Bill / Nardol were good but there were these great big elephants rampaging round the room crapping everywhere and kicking up the furniture and so ruining my overall enjoyment. I was exasperated by the time season 10 ended but not as much as i would be by the end of season 11.

Ronnie wrote:the introduction of Romana II brings a level of smug superiority between the two leads that had never been seen before. And it would take NuWho to escalate it to level beyond that as we see with Tennant and Piper.

I would say though that I could at least believe the Fourth Doctor and Romana had genuinely strong intellectual elite credentials behind their smug, superior air that made it seem they'd at least somewhat earned it (Nightmare of Eden was probably the one time it genuinely bothered me and left me cold, but for the most part I would take a smug, brainy Four and Romana over the utterly moronic characterization of Doctor and companions that followed under Davison).

With Tennant and Piper, it just came off as fanboy arrogance projected onto the characters. They just came off as supercilious and like that obnoxious pair who keep bigging each other up into believing they're both just so clever and funny and 'on another level'.

Though even that never prepared me for Clara at her worst.

Tanmann wrote:

Ronnie wrote:the introduction of Romana II brings a level of smug superiority between the two leads that had never been seen before. And it would take NuWho to escalate it to level beyond that as we see with Tennant and Piper.

I would say though that I could at least believe the Fourth Doctor and Romana had genuinely strong intellectual elite credentials behind their smug, superior air that made it seem they'd at least somewhat earned it (Nightmare of Eden was probably the one time it genuinely bothered me and left me cold).

With Tennant and Piper, it just came off as fanboy arrogance projected onto the characters. They just came off as supercilious and like that obnoxious pair who keep bigging each other up into believing they're both just so clever and funny and 'on another level'.

Though even that never prepared me for Clara at her worst.

I agree with all of this. At least Romana was characterised as an individual with earned traits of intelligence and class that at least made any air of superiority seem believable, and at least her dynamic with Tom stemmed from such an intelligence as opposed to a moronic romantic subplot. In contrast, Rose isn’t intelligent in the slightest, and is driven primarily by her lusting for the Doctor and vice versa, and so comes across as considerably more smug due to it appearing to celebrate mediocrity within the individual as opposed to actual intelligence- something one couldn’t accuse the Williams era of doing.

Although Clara is worse than Rose, given that her smugness is never earned at any point, and is done so purely to assert superiority over The Doctor.

Oh yes, the Tennant and Piper level of smugness was way beyond anything seen in the classic series. Utterly nauseating.

stengos wrote:There was the romantic elelement in that film but i always thought that was the adrenalin of regeneration and was not a necessary element of any series that flowed from that pilot. After all he dumped Grace at the end of the film. The half human thing never bothered me and inmho it was never confirmed. It was just the masters observation. A future story could easily dismiss it by saying the Master was wrong - misunderstood what he saw.

The fact that a decision can be explained away or retconned into something more acceptable doesn't make it correct or justified. A bad decision amendable with a little damage control is still a bad decision. The point is that these changes to the Doctor's character were made to pander to a mainstream audience the makers openly believed were too narrow-minded to accept an asexual alien protagonist. I think that's indicative of the same lack of confidence in the core concept that doomed NuWho.

Bernard Marx wrote:In contrast, Rose isn’t intelligent in the slightest, and is driven primarily by her lusting for the Doctor and vice versa, and so comes across as considerably more smug due to it appearing to celebrate mediocrity within the individual as opposed to actual intelligence- something one couldn’t accuse the Williams era of doing.

Rose's turn from 'everyman who's still new to all this' to unbearable smugness seemed to just suddenly happen out of the blue from The Long Game's first teaser onward. Which really was a prelude for the worst of Series Two, reaching its nadir with The Idiot's Lantern which made me sorely tempted to give up watching altogether at the time.

Although Clara is worse than Rose, given that her smugness is never earned at any point, and is done so purely to assert superiority over The Doctor.  

Clara I could just about believe as a regular woman, until Nightmare in Silver where she just inexplicably takes charge of the military. But it got worse once her smug superiority was gradually turned against the Doctor from Into the Dalek onwards.

For a time it was perhaps possible to think 'okay, Clara's been through the Doctor's timestream now and accumulated a thousand lifetimes' experience, so that's why she acts like she knows the Doctor inside out'.... but even that doesn't really make sense. The last thing I would expect of someone who'd been through that is for them to emerge as petty and utterly without humility as Series 8 Clara was.

Something that characterises the kiss between The Doctor and Grace in the TV Movie as forced and pandering to the mainstream was when they did so with fireworks exploding in the background in quasi-slow motion and with John Williams style orchestras blaring in the background- cinematic characteristics which are much more at home in Spielberg films as opposed to Doctor Who and ones which endorse a specific emotional response, and which seemed to have been inserted for the same reasons as when RTD inserted them. I think this is why it is easy to assume that it was a defining component of the film, and one which came to define a key convention of New Who going forward.

Tanmann wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:In contrast, Rose isn’t intelligent in the slightest, and is driven primarily by her lusting for the Doctor and vice versa, and so comes across as considerably more smug due to it appearing to celebrate mediocrity within the individual as opposed to actual intelligence- something one couldn’t accuse the Williams era of doing.

Rose's turn from 'everyman who's still new to all this' to unbearable smugness seemed to just suddenly happen out of the blue from The Long Game's first teaser onward. Which really was a prelude for the worst of Series Two, reaching its nadir with The Idiot's Lantern which made me sorely tempted to give up watching altogether at the time.

Although Clara is worse than Rose, given that her smugness is never earned at any point, and is done so purely to assert superiority over The Doctor.  

Clara I could just about believe as a regular woman, until Nightmare in Silver where she just inexplicably takes charge of the military. But it got worse once her smug superiority was gradually turned against the Doctor from Into the Dalek onwards.

For a time it was perhaps possible to think 'okay, Clara's been through the Doctor's timestream now and accumulated a thousand lifetimes' experience, so that's why she acts like she knows the Doctor inside out'.... but even that doesn't really make sense. The last thing I would expect of someone who'd been through that is for them to emerge as petty and utterly without humility as Series 8 Clara was.

Again, I agree with this. The Capaldi era saw the major decline in Clara’s character, without a doubt- she was merely bland in series 7, but downright insufferable in series 8. The scene at the end of Kill the Moon where she antagonises him extensively after he disagreed with her also came across as void of humility in the worst possible way.

Bernard Marx wrote:Again, I agree with this. The Capaldi era saw the major decline in Clara’s character, without a doubt- she was merely bland in series 7, but downright insufferable in series 8.

The worst thing is, even in her state of grief over losing Danny they manage to still push in a moment of unbearable smugness when she gives the Cybermen that long line about her being the Doctor really. Like no matter what you did to the character, she was still going to be Moffat's mouthpiece for clever-clever showing off.

The scene at the end of Kill the Moon where she antagonises him extensively after he disagreed with her also came across as void of humility in the worst possible way.

Actually that was one of the few moments that season I was completely on Clara's side.

But the problem is, on reflection there wasn't really any reason for the Doctor to be such a dick to leave them in the lurch other than to force that dilemma and rift to happen.

Tanmann wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:Again, I agree with this. The Capaldi era saw the major decline in Clara’s character, without a doubt- she was merely bland in series 7, but downright insufferable in series 8.

The worst thing is, even in her state of grief over losing Danny they manage to still push in a moment of unbearable smugness when she gives the Cybermen that long line about her being the Doctor really. Like no matter what you did to the character, she was still going to be Moffat's mouthpiece for clever-clever showing off.

The scene at the end of Kill the Moon where she antagonises him extensively after he disagreed with her also came across as void of humility in the worst possible way.

Actually that was one of the few moments that season I was completely on Clara's side.

But the problem is, on reflection there wasn't really any reason for the Doctor to be such a dick to leave them in the lurch other than to force that dilemma and rift to happen.

I think that’s my other key problem with her character and the scene which fucks me off- all conflict between both characters is generated by some contrived plot device and never comes naturally. I’ve not watched Kill the Moon since broadcast, so perhaps I need to re-assess the context, though recall finding the scene incredibly cringeworthy and contrived in its execution.

Although the opening scene of Death In Heaven was the lowest she’d steep that season- that opening credits tease was especially shite.

Bernard Marx wrote:I’ve not watched Kill the Moon since broadcast, so perhaps I need to re-assess the context, though recall finding the scene incredibly cringeworthy and contrived in its execution.

Actually on revisiting it, maybe I was wrong.

There really was no need for some of the language from her at the Doctor.

Tanmann wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:I’ve not watched Kill the Moon since broadcast, so perhaps I need to re-assess the context, though recall finding the scene incredibly cringeworthy and contrived in its execution.

Actually on revisiting it, maybe I was wrong.

There really was no need for some of the language from her at the Doctor.

Brilliant. That “cunt” from In the Loop at the end of the video should have been in the story- it would have improved Capaldi’s Doctor no end.

Honestly, it may be a weird choice to say but Doctor Who never felt the same to me when Elizabeth Sladen and Nicholas Courtney passed away/The Sarah Jane Adventures ended. By that point, I felt that the true core structure of the show was never there anymore. Granted, Big Finish kept it up just a tiny bit longer, but because of their obsessions with overpriced boxsets and because of stories like Lucie Miller/To the Death and A Death in the Family being terrific stories to end off Big Finish and other stories later nowhere near compared to the two stories that I mentioned (besides Absent Friends, that story is phenomenal), Big Finish has honestly petered out in terms of creativity.

For me though, the true Doctors are still Hartnell to McGann and any others are in their own bubble of reality (I can accept Smith being a Classic Doctor as well to be honest, and there is more stuff that I like in his era more than I dislike in his era).

The Williams/Adams era is definitely where the show's association with whimsy and  fatuousness was ramped up.

It left an indelible mark on the show's public perception that persists to this day. It's why the rags were full of shit about casting clowns and comedians in the role just prior to its resurrection in 2005.

It's immediate effect precipitated Bidmead's dry, scientific era. It was a reaction to the unrelenting silliness that preceded it.

Cunnus Maximus wrote:The Williams/Adams era is definitely where the show's association with whimsy and  fatuousness was ramped up.

It left an indelible mark on the show's public perception that persists to this day. It's why the rags were full of shit about casting clowns and comedians in the role just prior to its resurrection in 2005.

It's immediate effect precipitated Bidmead's dry, scientific era. It was a reaction to the unrelenting silliness that preceded it.

Should public perception of the show matter that much though?

It seemed to always matter too much to the New Who cheerleaders who always cited the ratings as proof that RTD was doing no wrong.

Public opinion can be grossly wrong occasionally.

Tanmann wrote:
Should public perception of the show matter that much though?

It seemed to always matter too much to the New Who cheerleaders who always cited the ratings as proof that RTD was doing no wrong.

Public opinion can be grossly wrong occasionally.

I think you're over-conflating public opinion with fan opinion. Sure, there's an overlap, but we live in a world of markets and demographics too. The public is so much bigger than fandom. Success is dependent on your average TV viewer, not Timelord007Banana and his bedroom rants about burping bins and farting aliens.

RTD was a straight-up populist, who knew that he could capture a big audiences with technicolor comic book soapiness and silliness. To say that public perception and market forces don't inform a writer's work is a bit silly. They absolutely do - especially if you want to feed your family.

Also, it worked.

Fan opinion largely coalesced with public opinion during Davies' tenure, but the production team disengaged themselves because they knew that focussing on a load of anoraks wasn't going to get them a top-rated show.

If they'd wanted a more authentic show for hard(er) sci-fi fans, they'd have sold it to an American network who could have ploughed enough cash into it to give us 3 or 4 seasons of good, but not very popular Who.

I caught a Nu Who recently in which the Doctor mentioned "Squeaky bum time"

Before we know it, there'll be an explosion of gay pride references (squeaks bum at the prospect)

Cunnus Maximus wrote:RTD was a straight-up populist, who knew that he could capture a big audiences with technicolor comic book soapiness and silliness. To say that public perception and market forces don't inform a writer's work is a bit silly. They absolutely do - especially if you want to feed your family.

Also, it worked.

It worked as an audience grabber, but I don't think I could sign off on the idea that it restored the show to anything resembling good health again, regardless how the public perceived it.

If done in some degree of moderation and distinction, perhaps. But the show just seemed to be degenerated into a desperate, parasitic mess of a leaking vessel under RTD, that could only survive as a pop culture leech.

It may have been restored to a chance and opportunity to be healthy again now it was successful and lucrative enough, and for a time there seemed hope we'd get that under Moffat (I think even most RTD cheerleaders would agree that a change was needed at that point as the show couldn't carry on being that way). But in hindsight it seemed to instead become trapped in the form it returned in. Precisely because the makers' ideas of what would be in the safer bounds of public perception of the show, doomed them to the same ever decreasing circles and formula.

Fan opinion largely coalesced with public opinion during Davies' tenure, but the production team disengaged themselves because they knew that focussing on a load of anoraks wasn't going to get them a top-rated show.

Well if the production had stuck to doing that disengagement completely, I could live with that. But I don't think RTD did ignore the anoraks. On the contrary he seemed unable to resist frequently using the power as head writer to deliberately troll, poke and provoke fandom's hornets nest for his own ego-trip, regardless of whether or not it did any good for the storytelling, the tone, or the show's public accessibility or esteem.

Disengaging with the fans shouldn't have to mean doing that at all, and to me that just showed a lack of professionalism overall.

There were a few sub-par seasons in the classic run but was mostly just alternating and it was never 'bad' imo.

The TV Movie wasn't great, and included some shite NuWho-like elements, but I didn't expect much from it. It's a cautious by-committee production sitting in an unclear position between the Classic and Nu.

Though I didn't hate the earlier NuWho seasons, even as part of the earlier series, it was definitely the 'beginning' of the decline that eventually brought us the shite that was late Moffatt and Chibnall.

It was quite gradual. S1 was ultimately inoffensive imo and you can forgive it for making changes as it tries to adapt to modern standards of television.

But they stuck with those changes and it eventually became clear that they'd forgotten what Doctor Who was supposed to be.

The RTD era became more ott and self-indulgent over time.

Moffat was an initial improvement of course, but his ego and political pandering gave us some of the
worst television I've ever seen.

Missy was a prélude to the ultimate shitfest and S11 was the biggest fall in quality overall.