An Adventure in Space and Time

Watched this last night for only the second time. For the most part, a very gratifying experience. Even the wife enjoyed it. Lol
There was more genuine emotion to be felt than the entirety of New Who put together.
I have criticisms, but they are relatively small.
I think they put a bit too much emphasis on Hartnell's age and the fluffed lines.
David Bradley does a remarkable job, and whilst I accept that Hartnell was in some respects, old before his time, and the drinking and smoking and punishing schedule clearly affected his health; it's hard not to get the impression that Harnell is being depicted as a 70 year old man, rather than the 57 year old who took on the role.
And whilst I would not want to airbrush his fluffed lines out of history, I just felt that they leaned on that a little too much.
Also, I was transported by the programme into the world of the 1960s, and undoubted magic that Dr Who conveyed for its viewers back in those days; that I'd completely forgotten about the aberration that is New Who. So much so that I found Matt Smith's cameo intrusive. And perhaps because Bill was depicted older, and played by an older actor than Hartnell actually was, it had the effect of Matt Smith in his Dr Who garb, seeming ridiculously young. He looked like he belonged in a Harry Potter film. But it's perhaps more because I'd forgotten about the cameo and it took me completely by surprise.
Also, Gattis getting his mate Reece Shearsmith in to play Troughton was the height of chummery associated with New Who. He looked ridiculous. Aside from Troughton being middle aged man himself at the time, Shearsmith looked more like someone hired to play a 1963 George Harrison who had been given the wrong costume.
But these are small niggles in the big scheme of things. On the whole, this was a smashing programme and tribute.

Ronnie wrote:Watched this last night for only the second time. For the most part, a very gratifying experience. Even the wife enjoyed it. Lol
There was more genuine emotion to be felt than the entirety of New Who put together.
I have criticisms, but they are relatively small.
I they put a bit too much emphasis on Hartnell's age and the fluffed lines.
David Bradley does a remarkable job, and whilst I accept that Hartnell was in some respects, old before his time, and the drinking and smoking and punishing schedule clearly affected his health; it's hard not to get the impression that Harnell is being depicted as a 70 year old man, rather than the 57 year old who took on the role.
And whilst I would not want to airbrush his fluffed lines out of history, I just felt that they leaned on that a little too much.
Also, I was transported by the programme into the world of the 1960s, and undoubted magic that Dr Who conveyed for its viewers back in those days; that I'd completely forgotten about the aberration that is New Who. So much so that I found Matt Smith's cameo intrusive. And perhaps because Bill was depicted older, and played by an older actor than Hartnell actually was, it had the effect of Matt Smith in his Dr Who garb, seeming ridiculously young. He looked like he belonged in a Harry Potter film. But it's perhaps more because I'd forgotten about the cameo and it took me completely by surprise.
Also, Gattis getting his mate Reece Shearsmith in to play Troughton was the height of chummery associated with New Who. He looked ridiculous. Aside from Troughton being middle aged man himself at the time, Shearsmith looked more like someone hired to play a 1963 George Harrison who had been given the wrong costume.
But these are small niggles in the big scheme of things. On the whole, this was a smashing programme and tribute.

I absolutely agree. This drama encapsulates the 1960s zeitgeist brilliantly, and unlike New Who, the emotional pathos of the film works because it’s not trying to adhere to the shallow conventions of teenage drama. In that respect, it feels significantly more genuine and mature, though I’d also agree that it features better direction and much better acting than any product from New Who (especially given the overall lack of smugness). The flaws you acknowledge are correct, especially the Shearsmith appearance, which just seemed bloody weird, as was Smith’s cameo (which I can forgive, given that he’s by far the best New Who Doctor, and represents Hartnell’s genuine legacy more than fucking Eccleston or Tennant ever did), but for me, this is the best thing the New Who production team have ever put out.

It really was excellent. The Matt Smith cameo did not bother me at the time. I liked the way it showed Hartnell looking into the future and seeing his character going on. In real life Hartnell whilst devastated at losing his favourite role, did in his final years become hugely proud of how long the show had lasted according to his wife, so I think this scene was meant to reflect that, rather than just be a puff for New Who.

Of course given what they've done since it leaves a bad taste, but it was very touching at the time.

Out of all the Fitrzroy Crowd, Mark Gatiss is the only one I don't dislike.

He hasn't been an asshole to people who don't want a female Doctor. He has had to tow the party line and say its a good thing, but he's wisely kept a dignified silence on the matter unlike Gary Russel gloating about blocking people.

Also his output is nowhere near the worst. I like quite a lot of his stories. The Unquiet Dead, Cold War, The Empress of Mars, The Crimson Horror and Robots of Sherwood are all fun at least, and quite a varied lot too.

He has done some stinkers, but again nothing like Last of the Time Lords, or Love and Monsters or Death in Heaven.

IMO Gatiss would have been a good producer. I wouldn't have wanted him to write the bulk of them, but I think as seen with this special he could have done a decent enough job running it.

He was also smart enough to jump ship after series 10.

Fair points to both of you re Matt's cameo. But yeah, Shearsmith was pure cosplay. He looked like a twat at a convention.

I'm more sad than ever that he didn't get the showrunner role after Moffat. Guess he wasn't cucked enough for the BBC.

Ronnie wrote:Fair points to both of you re Matt's cameo. But yeah, Shearsmith was pure cosplay. He looked like a twat at a convention.

He really did, and it did disrupt the tone and pathos of the scene at hand. Although I too hold this as a small gripe- I’d rather have a crap cosplayer appear on screen for 15 seconds as opposed to spending 20 minutes dwindling on characters crying with Gold’s music shoehorned in.

I re-watched it a few months back as well and enjoyed it just as much as before, though putting the disaster of New Who to the back of one’s mind is probably required to do so. I still think it’s superb though, flaws aside.

iank wrote:I'm more sad than ever that he didn't get the showrunner role after Moffat. Guess he wasn't cucked enough for the BBC.

That's it exactly. Gatiss apparently did object to the PC crap in The Empress of Mars but he was overruled. I can imagine that he wouldn't be willing to tow the party line with this in mind to quite the same extent.

Can you imagine how much better Gatiss would have written the first Doctor for instance than Moffat?

Bernard Marx wrote:

Ronnie wrote:Fair points to both of you re Matt's cameo. But yeah, Shearsmith was pure cosplay. He looked like a twat at a convention.

He really did, and it did disrupt the tone and pathos of the scene at hand. Although I too hold this as a small gripe- I’d rather have a crap cosplayer appear on screen for 15 seconds as opposed to spending 20 minutes dwindling on characters crying with Gold’s music shoehorned in.

Well if you put it like that then I'm forced to agree.

I get that it was little more than a cameo, but this is Patrick Troughton, the second Doctor we're talking about, and he deserved more than Gattis sticking his mate in a Beatles wig to represent him.

iank wrote:I'm more sad than ever that he didn't get the showrunner role after Moffat. Guess he wasn't cucked enough for the BBC.

I had to resort to:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cucked

.... but I'm afraid it still didn't help me understand what you mean.

But nobody could be worse than Moffat anyway.
Although I thought that about RTD once.

Ronnie wrote:
But nobody could be worse than Moffat anyway.

Have you ever heard of a chap called Christopher Chibnall ... ?

I really enjoyed this film - 90 minutes of nostalgia. It was the highlight of the 50th anniversary celebrations for me.

I must say, I'm quite fond of 'An Adventure in Time and Space' and as others here have pointed out, it was the very best-offering of the 50th Anniversary celebration. I wish it was just a little bit less maudlin because, at times, AAITAS does still feel tainted by sickly NuWho sentimentality. I could have done without that 'I don't want to go' scene, as well as the rather incongruous appearance of Matt Smith.
Reece Shearsmith as Troughton? - he sounded more like Ollie Plimsolls...

Still, it was a brave effort and very entertaining.

Ronnie wrote:

iank wrote:I'm more sad than ever that he didn't get the showrunner role after Moffat. Guess he wasn't cucked enough for the BBC.

I had to resort to:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cucked

.... but I'm afraid it still didn't help me understand what you mean.

Well the term 'cucked', in modern online parlance, has been used to also mean being bombarded into defeat or submission, and particularly to describe a man who grovels before women and feminists and surrenders any spine or will of his own to theirs. In the way Moffat has by cowing to his feminist critics and their feminist agenda.

It used to be called 'beta-ing' or 'white knighting', or being a 'mangina'. Now they tend to just call it being a 'cuck' or being 'cucked'.

I actually liked it more than the 50th Anniversary story.

Commander Maxil wrote:I actually liked it more than the 50th Anniversary story.

Likewise. I’d argue that it was the best thing related to the 50th anniversary, and certainly better than DOTD.

Commander Maxil wrote:I actually liked it more than the 50th Anniversary story.

Perhaps because this actually *was* a 50th Anniversary special, rather than just a New Who celebration only.

Tanmann wrote:

Ronnie wrote:

iank wrote:I'm more sad than ever that he didn't get the showrunner role after Moffat. Guess he wasn't cucked enough for the BBC.

I had to resort to:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cucked

.... but I'm afraid it still didn't help me understand what you mean.

Well the term 'cucked', in modern online parlance, has been used to also mean being bombarded into defeat or submission, and particularly to describe a man who grovels before women and feminists and surrenders any spine or will of his own to theirs. In the way Moffat has by cowing to his feminist critics and their feminist agenda.

It used to be called 'beta-ing' or 'white knighting', or being a 'mangina'. Now they tend to just call it being a 'cuck' or being 'cucked'.

I see. I appreciate that explanation, thanks.
My response to the notion is more long-winded than I have time for at the moment, but perhaps something to come back to later as it certainly merits discussion. Perhaps in the political section.

So I just found out about Twice Upon a Time.... Dare I ask what it's like? (anyone)

I mean, I know it will be rubbish, but.... Did they do Bradley/Hartnell/First Doctor any justice at all?

It's mindbogglingly awful. The First Doctor is reimagined as a 1960s chauvinist sexist.

I really wish I was joking.

Ronnie wrote:So I just found out about Twice Upon a Time.... Dare I ask what it's like? (anyone)

I mean, I know it will be rubbish, but.... Did they do Bradley/Hartnell/First Doctor any justice at all?

As Iank points out, they portray Hartnell’s Doctor as a chuvanist sexist and never justify this decision at any point. Then again, it is basically Moffat’s personality bleeding through the script, given that he described Hartnell as ‘dispensable’, ‘misremembered’ and ‘an old guy in the lead who can’t remember his lines’, so I assume he took pride in writing him that way.

Oh- and they also retcon his regeneration by making him not want to change, akin to Tennant, even though anyone with a remote understanding of Hartnell’s character and the original regeneration (‘It’s far from being all over’) will see how this doesn’t work.

Bernard Marx wrote:Then again, it is basically Moffat’s personality bleeding through the script, given that he described Hartnell as ‘dispensable’, ‘misremembered’ and ‘an old guy in the lead who can’t remember his lines’, so I assume he took pride in writing him that way.

I can well imagine. No doubt I'd hate it, because Moffat's 'personality' comes across as a complete bell-end.

Ronnie wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:Then again, it is basically Moffat’s personality bleeding through the script, given that he described Hartnell as ‘dispensable’, ‘misremembered’ and ‘an old guy in the lead who can’t remember his lines’, so I assume he took pride in writing him that way.

I can well imagine. No doubt I'd hate it, because Moffat's 'personality' comes across as a complete bell-end.

I’d argue the same for the majority of the New Who production team, to be honest.

Bernard Marx wrote:

Ronnie wrote:So I just found out about Twice Upon a Time.... Dare I ask what it's like? (anyone)

I mean, I know it will be rubbish, but.... Did they do Bradley/Hartnell/First Doctor any justice at all?

As Iank points out, they portray Hartnell’s Doctor as a chuvanist sexist and never justify this decision at any point. Then again, it is basically Moffat’s personality bleeding through the script, given that he described Hartnell as ‘dispensable’, ‘misremembered’ and ‘an old guy in the lead who can’t remember his lines’, so I assume he took pride in writing him that way.

Oh- and they also retcon his regeneration by making him not want to change, akin to Tennant, even though anyone with a remote understanding of Hartnell’s character and the original regeneration (‘It’s far from being all over’) will see how this doesn’t work.

Well I've just "acquired" Twice Upon A Time', (and 'Resolution', which I gather is Doctress Who's first Dalek story)
They're hard-subbed in Czech, but don't care because I figure it can't possibly make them any worse.
In fact, trying to figure out a few Czech words along the way will probably make the episodes far more interesting.

Ronnie wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:

Ronnie wrote:So I just found out about Twice Upon a Time.... Dare I ask what it's like? (anyone)

I mean, I know it will be rubbish, but.... Did they do Bradley/Hartnell/First Doctor any justice at all?

As Iank points out, they portray Hartnell’s Doctor as a chuvanist sexist and never justify this decision at any point. Then again, it is basically Moffat’s personality bleeding through the script, given that he described Hartnell as ‘dispensable’, ‘misremembered’ and ‘an old guy in the lead who can’t remember his lines’, so I assume he took pride in writing him that way.

Oh- and they also retcon his regeneration by making him not want to change, akin to Tennant, even though anyone with a remote understanding of Hartnell’s character and the original regeneration (‘It’s far from being all over’) will see how this doesn’t work.

Well I've just "acquired" Twice Upon A Time', (and 'Resolution', which I gather is Doctress Who's first Dalek story)
They're hard-subbed in Czech, but don't care because I figure it can't possibly make them any worse.
In fact, trying to figure out a few Czech words along the way will probably make the episodes far more interesting.

I wish you luck- you’ll need it prior to watching these. To be honest, I’d advise that you focus purely on the Czech subtitles rather than the episodes themselves.

Then again, I can’t say much, given that I’ve also recently indulged in watching lots of crap New Who and tearing them apart on this forum.

Bernard Marx wrote:

Ronnie wrote:

Bernard Marx wrote:

Ronnie wrote:So I just found out about Twice Upon a Time.... Dare I ask what it's like? (anyone)

I mean, I know it will be rubbish, but.... Did they do Bradley/Hartnell/First Doctor any justice at all?

As Iank points out, they portray Hartnell’s Doctor as a chuvanist sexist and never justify this decision at any point. Then again, it is basically Moffat’s personality bleeding through the script, given that he described Hartnell as ‘dispensable’, ‘misremembered’ and ‘an old guy in the lead who can’t remember his lines’, so I assume he took pride in writing him that way.

Oh- and they also retcon his regeneration by making him not want to change, akin to Tennant, even though anyone with a remote understanding of Hartnell’s character and the original regeneration (‘It’s far from being all over’) will see how this doesn’t work.

Well I've just "acquired" Twice Upon A Time', (and 'Resolution', which I gather is Doctress Who's first Dalek story)
They're hard-subbed in Czech, but don't care because I figure it can't possibly make them any worse.
In fact, trying to figure out a few Czech words along the way will probably make the episodes far more interesting.

I wish you luck- you’ll need it prior to watching these.  To be honest, I’d advise that you focus purely on the Czech subtitles rather than the episodes themselves.

Then again, I can’t say much, given that I’ve also recently indulged in watching lots of crap New Who and tearing them apart on this forum.

Thanks.
The missus is having a girlie night and staying over at her friend's house on Friday, so that might be the best time to do it.