Eccleston charging £95 for an autograph

My sister got me his autograph for nothing when she met him while he was making a film.

I actually forgot he was in Heroes as well.

I don't get autographs unless you're going to sell them on.

TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote:I don't get autographs unless you're going to sell them on.

I prefer to do a photoshoot with them because you get a better opportunity to squeeze their bum cheeks. You can't do that when they're sitting down.

I have gotten a few autographs over the years. They're nice ways to meet childhood heroes and its cool to have a bit of memorbeila afterwards. I was a bit too shy to do a photo with any of them however. Its one thing to be in a cue, but to have them stand beside me and put their arm over me, I'd feel a bit too nervous.

I'd say Peter Purves and James Marsters, Jacqueline Pearce and Ingrid Oliver were among the nicest. You could chat with all of them a bit longer. Terry Molloy was a nice guy too. He didn't seem to like New Who very much. I don't think I was a good guest to him though in that I was more whining about how they were going to fuck up Davros (that was before the Witch's Familiar aired.) I feel a bit bad about that, but at least he dealt with it like a pro.

Chris Barrie was a really funny guy. I got him to sign a picture of the hippie Rimmer from Demons and Angels and he said "MY BROOK IS BABBLED". Looking at the picture was enough to make me LOL. "THIGH LOVE CLEANSES AND REFRESHES ME LIKE A FRESH MOUNTAIN STREAM!"  

Colin Baker I hate to say was the biggest disapointment. It wasn't that he was mean. He was quite funny in some ways, but he was really miserable. Any compliment you'd try to give him on his Doctor he wouldn't take. Like when my brother said that he loved Vengeance on Varos his response was "Well I'm glad at least one person enjoys my stories."

I'm not sure there are any more whose autograph's I would want now TBH? I got a childhood favourite in Spike and Servalan, biggest crush in Ingrid, and all of the surviving true who Doctors bar Tom.

I think maybe Dana Delorenzo or Bruce Campbell, or perhaps a really big one like Mark Hamill, or Tom Baker would tempt me, but other than that I'm done.

Eccelston has a fucking cheek btw charging that. That autograph is more than I paid for Spike, Peter Davison, Sylvester McCoy, Ingrid Oliver, and Jacqueline Pearce combined!

Apart from Ingrid and possibly Jacqueline (simply because its been so long and there's been no remake of B7.) ALL of them are more famous than he is.

Peter and Sylvester were all his biggest role, the Doctor, longer and they outsell him on DVD every year. (Both Peter and Sylvester have also had bigger careers post Who.) Spike meanwhile is the icon of Buffy and ironically Eccelston's Doctor was in many ways a poor man's version of Spike.

I don't think Eccelston's a bad guy or anything (I respect him hugely for standing up for the crew being bullied on DW, even when it cost him the biggest role of his career and could have finished him.) Still charging that from your fans is outrageous and I reckon most of them won't bother.

I seem to recall reading that Karen Gillan charged over 60 pounds for her autograph too. You might be thinking "Well she is huge thanks to Marvel." But this was before Marvel, when it was just DW she was known for. Again I love Karen Gillan as an actress. (Possibly the best New Who companion.) But that is still ridiculous.

burrunjor wrote:I have gotten a few autographs over the years. They're nice ways to meet childhood heroes and its cool to have a bit of memorbeila afterwards. I was a bit too shy to do a photo with any of them however. Its one thing to be in a cue, but to have them stand beside me and put their arm over me, I'd feel a bit too nervous.

I'd say Peter Purves and James Marsters, Jacqueline Pearce and Ingrid Oliver were among the nicest. You could chat with all of them a bit longer. Terry Molloy was a nice guy too. He didn't seem to like New Who very much. I don't think I was a good guest to him though in that I was more whining about how they were going to fuck up Davros (that was before the Witch's Familiar aired.) I feel a bit bad about that, but at least he dealt with it like a pro.

Chris Barrie was a really funny guy. I got him to sign a picture of the hippie Rimmer from Demons and Angels and he said "MY BROOK IS BABBLED". Looking at the picture was enough to make me LOL. "THIGH LOVE CLEANSES AND REFRESHES ME LIKE A FRESH MOUNTAIN STREAM!"  

Colin Baker I hate to say was the biggest disapointment. It wasn't that he was mean. He was quite funny in some ways, but he was really miserable. Any compliment you'd try to give him on his Doctor he wouldn't take. Like when my brother said that he loved Vengeance on Varos his response was "Well I'm glad at least one person enjoys my stories."

I'm not sure there are any more whose autograph's I would want now TBH? I got a childhood favourite in Spike and Servalan, biggest crush in Ingrid, and all of the surviving true who Doctors bar Tom.

I think maybe Dana Delorenzo or Bruce Campbell, or perhaps a really big one like Mark Hamill, or Tom Baker would tempt me, but other than that I'm done.

Eccelston has a fucking cheek btw charging that. That autograph is more than I paid for Spike, Peter Davison, Sylvester McCoy, Ingrid Oliver, and Jacqueline Pearce combined!

Apart from Ingrid and possibly Jacqueline (simply because its been so long and there's been no remake of B7.) ALL of them are more famous than he is.

Peter and Sylvester were all his biggest role, the Doctor, longer and they outsell him on DVD every year. (Both Peter and Sylvester have also had bigger careers post Who.) Spike meanwhile is the icon of Buffy and ironically Eccelston's Doctor was in many ways a poor man's version of Spike.

I don't think Eccelston's a bad guy or anything (I respect him hugely for standing up for the crew being bullied on DW, even when it cost him the biggest role of his career and could have finished him.) Still charging that from your fans is outrageous and I reckon most of them won't bother.

I seem to recall reading that Karen Gillan charged over 60 pounds for her autograph too. You might be thinking "Well she is huge thanks to Marvel." But this was before Marvel, when it was just DW she was known for. Again I love Karen Gillan as an actress. (Possibly the best New Who companion.) But that is still ridiculous.

I was going to meet Sophie in July but she's going on the only day I can't go!


Yeah, I met Colin. He was more interested in talking to my sister than he was to me. He kept talking over me at times so he completely missed my "you were a great Doctor" comment. I dunno, it left me cold. McCoy was class, though.

Yeah, I met Colin. He was more interested in talking to my sister than he was to me. He kept talking over me at times so he completely missed my "you were a great Doctor" comment. I dunno, it left me cold. McCoy was class, though.

I'd always heard stories about Colin being a nice guy to work with on DW, but lots of people have said he is quite grumpy these days at conventions. Davison said he was also very prickly during the filming of Fivish Doctors.

Its a shame as its clearly because he is upset at being voted the worst Doctor all the time. Worse than that DW finished his career. Pre DW he had a brilliant career, but after he was made the fall guy he barely worked again. Despite his enthusiasm there are times I'd wage where he probably wishes he had never played the role and its beginning to show.

Its one of the things that I've never really forgiven the Fitzroy Crowd for. They perpetuated the Colin was the worst Doctor myth. Sure RTD had Colin on the set of one story, but other than that they've reinforced all of the negative myths about his Doctor. (I personally always hated these tweets where Capaldi has Katy Manning or Janet Fielding on set. Big fucking deal. What does that matter Peter if you're not playing the actual character, but a cuck whose apologizing for having balls? It feels like overcompensating. Did Philip Hinchcliff need to have Carole Ann Ford on set to hammer home it was the same show.)

The Fitzroy crowd have reinforced the idea that DW finished in the 80s because of its low quality. Now fair enough you may not like 80s era Who, but it cannot be denied that it was 90 percent down to the BBC sabotaging it.

Furthermore people like Paul Cornell also perpetuate myths like the Doctor became too violent in the 80s and used guns too often which made him unlikable. You always see that in youtube videos about why Colin was the worst Doctor by millenial fetuses who clearly haven't seen any of the classic era.

How is Colin dumping two guys in acid worse than Tom throwing a guy into a meat grinder? How is Colin joking about killing Shockeye, worse than Tom joking about killing the Cyberman with the Cybermat? How is Colin shooting several Cybermen worse than Patrick Troughton mowing down dozens of Ice Warriors (Jon Pertwee did that in Monster of Peladon too.)

Answer? It isn't, but recieved wisdom says that DW got shit in the 80s and since it finished in the 80s then it must be true. The Fitzroy Crowd however had a chance to refute these myths and show Colin was a legit incarnation.

They didn't however because they wanted to create a narrative that they fixed the show that was broken and that their way is the only way it can be successful. All of this has made Colin into even more of the fall guy than he was in the 90s. Its sad.

That said however Colin has handled it terribly. Being grumpy to the fans that DO like him, and trying to keep in with the SJW morons is the worst thing he could do. Yeah Colin I'm sure Whovian feminism, a misandrist who hates strong male characters, who hates guns, and hates action stories, (so much so she got angry that SUPERHERO films have to revolve around action. She said we should have a Batgirl movie about her dating life, and a Supergirl movie about her career as a journalist )

I'm sure someone like that is going to love an era with a female companion with big tits constantly being captured, an angry, confident male hero who throws people into acid, and violent, fast paced action stories with lots of shit being blown up.

burrunjor wrote:Its one of the things that I've never really forgiven the Fitzroy Crowd for. They perpetuated the Colin was the worst Doctor myth....... The Fitzroy Crowd however had a chance to refute these myths and show Colin was a legit incarnation.

They didn't however because they wanted to create a narrative that they fixed the show that was broken and that their way is the only way it can be successful. All of this has made Colin into even more of the fall guy than he was in the 90s. Its sad.

I'm not sure how you figure that. The Fitzroy Tavern are the ones who gave us Big Finish which extensively redeemed Colin's Doctor in the eyes of fans and showed how good he could be had he been allowed to stay on and gotten really solid writing.

Pretty much everything they've done with Big Finish has all been about giving Colin a second chance and demonstrating that it wasn't his fault.

Tanmann wrote:

burrunjor wrote:Its one of the things that I've never really forgiven the Fitzroy Crowd for. They perpetuated the Colin was the worst Doctor myth....... The Fitzroy Crowd however had a chance to refute these myths and show Colin was a legit incarnation.

They didn't however because they wanted to create a narrative that they fixed the show that was broken and that their way is the only way it can be successful. All of this has made Colin into even more of the fall guy than he was in the 90s. Its sad.

I'm not sure how you figure that. The Fitzroy Tavern are the ones who gave us Big Finish which extensively redeemed Colin's Doctor in the eyes of fans and showed how good he could be had he been allowed to stay on and gotten really solid writing.

Pretty much everything they've done with Big Finish has all been about giving Colin a second chance and demonstrating that it wasn't his fault.

A few of the Fitzroy crowd on audio sure, a niche market, but to the tv audience they've created the idea of it all finished in the 80s because it got shit and nothing else.

Look at these quotes from RTD and Moffat.

Russell T Davies wrote:It’s hard to express the joy of that. For 20 years, this thing was a joke. It was slightly embarrassing admitting liking it. In fact, very embarrassing. You’d see comedians taking the piss out of it. It would crop up on I Love the 60s shows, where they would make it look like rubbish. And to see it being what it always was in our hearts is just amazing. You mentioned it in the same sentence as James Bond. My God, that’s impossible!

Steven Moffat wrote:5. Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy. Miscast and floundering. Neither made much impression on the role and none at all on the audience. Or at least on me.

Then there's Chibbers appearing on tv to bash Colin's era at the time it was broadcast.

Yes the likes of Russell and Briggs may have given him better material to work with in audios and I am grateful for that, but they were always a bit more on the fringes of the fandom incrowd. (Hence why neither of them got a gig writing for the tv show, though Russell still exposed himself as a dick with his comments on twitter.)

The core members of the group, RTD, Moffat, Chibbers etc IMO have harmed Colin and 80s Who in general's reputation.

Nonsense. McCoy was ranked best Doctor in 1990. Clearly he made some sort of positive impression on the audience.

Commander Maxil wrote:

burrunjor wrote:I have gotten a few autographs over the years. They're nice ways to meet childhood heroes and its cool to have a bit of memorbeila afterwards. I was a bit too shy to do a photo with any of them however. Its one thing to be in a cue, but to have them stand beside me and put their arm over me, I'd feel a bit too nervous.

I'd say Peter Purves and James Marsters, Jacqueline Pearce and Ingrid Oliver were among the nicest. You could chat with all of them a bit longer. Terry Molloy was a nice guy too. He didn't seem to like New Who very much. I don't think I was a good guest to him though in that I was more whining about how they were going to fuck up Davros (that was before the Witch's Familiar aired.) I feel a bit bad about that, but at least he dealt with it like a pro.

Chris Barrie was a really funny guy. I got him to sign a picture of the hippie Rimmer from Demons and Angels and he said "MY BROOK IS BABBLED". Looking at the picture was enough to make me LOL. "THIGH LOVE CLEANSES AND REFRESHES ME LIKE A FRESH MOUNTAIN STREAM!"  

Colin Baker I hate to say was the biggest disapointment. It wasn't that he was mean. He was quite funny in some ways, but he was really miserable. Any compliment you'd try to give him on his Doctor he wouldn't take. Like when my brother said that he loved Vengeance on Varos his response was "Well I'm glad at least one person enjoys my stories."

I'm not sure there are any more whose autograph's I would want now TBH? I got a childhood favourite in Spike and Servalan, biggest crush in Ingrid, and all of the surviving true who Doctors bar Tom.

I think maybe Dana Delorenzo or Bruce Campbell, or perhaps a really big one like Mark Hamill, or Tom Baker would tempt me, but other than that I'm done.

Eccelston has a fucking cheek btw charging that. That autograph is more than I paid for Spike, Peter Davison, Sylvester McCoy, Ingrid Oliver, and Jacqueline Pearce combined!

Apart from Ingrid and possibly Jacqueline (simply because its been so long and there's been no remake of B7.) ALL of them are more famous than he is.

Peter and Sylvester were all his biggest role, the Doctor, longer and they outsell him on DVD every year. (Both Peter and Sylvester have also had bigger careers post Who.) Spike meanwhile is the icon of Buffy and ironically Eccelston's Doctor was in many ways a poor man's version of Spike.

I don't think Eccelston's a bad guy or anything (I respect him hugely for standing up for the crew being bullied on DW, even when it cost him the biggest role of his career and could have finished him.) Still charging that from your fans is outrageous and I reckon most of them won't bother.

I seem to recall reading that Karen Gillan charged over 60 pounds for her autograph too. You might be thinking "Well she is huge thanks to Marvel." But this was before Marvel, when it was just DW she was known for. Again I love Karen Gillan as an actress. (Possibly the best New Who companion.) But that is still ridiculous.

I was going to meet Sophie in July but she's going on the only day I can't go!


Yeah, I met Colin. He was more interested in talking to my sister than he was to me. He kept talking over me at times so he completely missed my "you were a great Doctor" comment. I dunno, it left me cold. McCoy was class, though.

My experience with Colin, I found quite pleasant. It was recently last year that I had a photo with him. He seemed like a nice guy, but it was only for a little bit until I left the booth to get some other stuff. However, in one other convention last year, I met Peter Davison and Paul McGann. My experience with Davison was nothing to write home about, he definitely seems like a shy and introverted guy, which I had no problem with, but felt a little weird considering all the other actors are quite bombastic and speak their mind. Meeting Paul McGann was one of the happiest experiences I had. One of the nicest celebrities I've ever had the pleasure of meeting, and I could tell that he took my statement to heart when I said he is my favourite Doctor, and I had a wonderful compliment said about me from him as well which was lovely. This year at Comic-Con, I am meeting Sylvester McCoy, hoping that will be a wonderful time.

burrunjor wrote:The core members of the group, RTD, Moffat, Chibbers etc IMO have harmed Colin and 80s Who in general's reputation.

I don't think you can blame them for how people responded to JNT and Saward's tackier creative decisions.

Besides the quote by RTD wasn't saying it was deserved that the show got that negative perception as a 'joke' or that fandom should've been made to feel embarrassed by the show. Quite the opposite, he seemed to be saying it was an injustice.

As for Moffat, given that he also opined that Tom was overrated, I don't really think his opinion was that powerful. Most fans who even liked his writing think he is a bit of a berk with many of his views.

Chibnall it just sounds like he didn't like the latter half of Trial of a Time Lord, albeit he seemed to go about saying so rather tactlessly.

For £95 I'd expect 30 seconds of vigorous, energetic head as well as a signature.

Boofer wrote:For £95 I'd expect 30 seconds of vigorous, energetic head as well as a signature.

More like some major ass gaping.

We're only one level from prolapse rimming now.

I don't think you can blame them for how people responded to JNT and Saward's tackier creative decisions.

Besides the quote by RTD wasn't saying it was deserved that the show got that negative perception as a 'joke' or that fandom should've been made to feel embarrassed by the show. Quite the opposite, he seemed to be saying it was an injustice.

I don't blame them for the show being canned, but the reason it was canned was not simply because JNT and Saward ran it into the ground. Regardless of whether you dislike what they did with the show, that has to take a back seat to the BBC's sabotage.

The show's viewers were reasonably consistent throughout the JNT years until Colin's first season. They had their ups and downs sure, but they weren't anywhere near low enough for cancellation. Ironically Tom's last season and Patrick's last season both represent far greater lows.

Michael Grade and Jonathan Powell both hated the show and JNT. Powell said he hoped JNT would fuck off and die, and advised him against taking legal action against Saward when he slagged him off. He later openly admitted he gave JNT bad advice there solely to put another nail in his coffin.

Powell and Grade took it off in 1985 solely out of dislike. Its only after that there is a big decline in viewers.

They also gave it no advertising. As we have been over every era before and after was given good publicity. Jon Pertwee had a radio times cover every year for instance. There is one for the entire decade of the 80s meanwhile.

Also on top of that they killed its following abroad by raising prices of the stories to the point where no one could buy them. This is why McCoy wasn't seen in America until the late 90s. The recieved wisdom is that its because he was just a joke of a Doctor, when in actual fact.



They also put it opposite Corrie which was at that point getting 30 million viewers, almost half of the population of the UK.

Grade also insisted on making Colin's Doctor toothless in Trial, and the show lighter, and sillier in season 24. He later admitted he did this to undermine it. (Notice after he left in season 25 they go to the darker Doctor.)

They also fired the leading man of the show, going against his contract and made it look like career suicide to accept the role, and they kept JNT on as producer when he wanted to leave, by threatening to cancel the show if he left.

On top of all this they also slashed its already meagre budget (which was the main criticism of the show that its effects were crap.)

With all of this in mind is it any wonder it died? You really telling me if it had a good time slot, a good budget, Colin wasn't ousted, and good promotion it couldn't have survived?

Yes JNT made some mistakes, the worst of which was his costume, but that is hardly a major factor. PS JNT would have fucked off after Colin's second or third season as most. No way would he have cast a third Doctor willingly. Saward was the same, so a new production team could have stepped in and again with a good budget and advertising who knows where it could have gone.

The Fitzroy crowd IMO in the 00s played up this idea that the show had died because it was too violent and cheap and embarassing. All RTD used to go on about was that he had to sever all association with the original for the new one to be a success. Mark Gatiss went on about how DW was almost totally forgotten had no appeal to children in the 00s and he felt that in a few years no one would remember it. (Ill try and get the interview.)

The general consensus created by the Fitzroy Crowd is that DW could never have been like the original because it died a miserable death, hence why they had to change everything.

Colin whose reputation had already been a bit shaky was hit bad by this as was McCoy. If it had been a faithful revival with the proper Doctor being brought back then they perhaps would have been seen as proper Doctors more, rather than being held as what the character should not be.

Only thing I thank Grade for is Season 24 which is my favourite season of all time. People just write it off as silly nonsense but it was actually very ambitious and unique.

burrunjor wrote:I don't blame them for the show being canned, but the reason it was canned was not simply because JNT and Saward ran it into the ground. Regardless of whether you dislike what they did with the show, that has to take a back seat to the BBC's sabotage.

Well I was referring more to your point about the reputation of 80's Who, and I do think there are reasons beyond the espoused views of RTD or the Tavern bunch behind why some fans don't take to Colin's era.

I'm certainly with you that Grade could've been appointed BBC controller during the height of Jon Pertwee or Tom Baker and would've still axed the show, regardless of its writing quality. The quality of the series was incidental but I don't think Grade being a dick makes 80's Who better or fans who didn't like Colin's time invalid.

Ironically Tom's last season and Patrick's last season both represent far greater lows.

I think in each case the show had been too successful in the past, *and* the BBC were already investing a lot in the new production team, to justify taking it off over a lull period.

Though some might make the case that Tom's last season was the major blow to the BBC's confidence in the show that led to everything else.

Michael Grade and Jonathan Powell both hated the show and JNT. Powell said he hoped JNT would fuck off and die, and advised him against taking legal action against Saward when he slagged him off. He later openly admitted he gave JNT bad advice there solely to put another nail in his coffin.

I know what Grade's grudge against the show was. He'd always resented its success because it was his most intractable opposition back in the 70's when he was in charge of ITV scheduling and yet could never win the ratings war against it. And I imagine he came to resent its audience too for not appreciating his idea of respectable TV.

Powell on the other hand, I vaguely get the sense did sense there was a time when the show had at least worked as popular TV and yet had fallen down the rabbit hole of alienating continuity under JNT, and creative irresponsibility in regards the violence (granted some of his opinions on Season 22 seem to have been swayed against by Grade after the fact).

I don't think he understood what was the key to the show's past success but he was frustrated that JNT couldn't just easily pull it off the way his predecessors had (hence the "I wanted him to fuck off and solve it").

Also on top of that they killed its following abroad by raising prices of the stories to the point where no one could buy them. This is why McCoy wasn't seen in America until the late 90s. The recieved wisdom is that its because he was just a joke of a Doctor, when in actual fact.

I can't understand why they were doing that beyond petty embarrassment at the possibility of the show being seen as their flagship product. Which is ridiculous of them.

I can only explain it as that they didn't have the will to keep up the supply so they decided to kill the demand.

Grade also insisted on making Colin's Doctor toothless in Trial, and the show lighter, and sillier in season 24. He later admitted he did this to undermine it. (Notice after he left in season 25 they go to the darker Doctor.)

Problem is, in that case it was equally wrong and detrimental to the show for JNT and Saward to make Davison's Doctor toothless long before Grade.

With all of this in mind is it any wonder it died? You really telling me if it had a good time slot, a good budget, Colin wasn't ousted, and good promotion it couldn't have survived?

I'm not entirely sure. For all I know the damage had already been done by Time-Flight, Warriors of the Deep and Twin Dilemma telling viewers to go elsewhere if they wanted a show with a fit for purpose hero, and it was only a matter of time before viewer patience withered away.

The Fitzroy crowd IMO in the 00s played up this idea that the show had died because it was too violent and cheap and embarassing. All RTD used to go on about was that he had to sever all association with the original for the new one to be a success. Mark Gatiss went on about how DW was almost totally forgotten had no appeal to children in the 00s and he felt that in a few years no one would remember it. (Ill try and get the interview.)

I don't know if it's fair to say they played it up, but as many of them were BBC insiders and were inevitably swayed by institutional attitudes to the show, they certainly went along with a lot of the views of their peers. Same way I imagine JNT disdained the previous Williams era because that was the institutional attitude of the BBC too.

And yes it is unfortunate that this did filter down to a degree.

But as I alluded to earlier, the Fitzroy crowd also proved that consensus right to a degree through Big Finish. They proved that better written stories for the 80's Doctors in which Colin wasn't just acting like a thug and it wasn't all just a heartless exercise, were possible and were more satisfying.

Colin whose reputation had already been a bit shaky was hit bad by this as was McCoy. If it had been a faithful revival with the proper Doctor being brought back then they perhaps would have been seen as proper Doctors more, rather than being held as what the character should not be.

I don't agree there. Infact I think Eccleston's Doctor is more like the Sixth than any of the others.

What I do think is that (a) the show had been off-air so long that any connection to the classic Doctors, or any kind of Victorian model for the protagonist, was abandoned and treated as lost to living memory, and they just decided to take no risks and make the character as pandering as possible.

(b) RTD by this point had been institutionalized into Channel 4's sensibilities, and so thought that the show needed to ape the likes of Shameless and Big Brother, and the Doctor had to basically be modelled on the gossipy, quick-fire likes of Chris Evans in the hope that it'll attract the TFI Friday audience too, or at least not repel them with anything too high-brow.

I think any attitudes to Colin's Doctor got lost in the blur of that distance.

They proved that better written stories for the 80's Doctors in which Colin wasn't just acting like a thug and it wasn't all just a heartless exercise, were possible and were more satisfying.

This kind of proves my point. The attitude is that Colin's Doctor on tv was so rubbish that he needed fixing. He didn't. Its great to give hm more stories, but he wasn't a dead end Doctor.

His Doctor is not a thug in any story. In the Twin Dilemma he is meant to be insane. The regeneration has gone wrong because of the poison. This is set up in Caves of Androzani, when he says the regeneration feels different.

Other than that story where he is meant to be crazy, Colin is never more violent than any other Doctor. Like I said its just received wisdom that he was and that's why the show got canned.

I'm not saying that everyone who dislikes Colin's performance is just buying into received wisdom BTW. Its just that the reasons given that he is too violent IMO seem hollow and just like any excuse to bash him.

Colin kicks a guy into acid, Tom kicks a guy into a meat grinder. What's the difference?

Colin shoots some Cybermen about to attack him, Patrick Troughton mows down 4 Ice Warriors in Seeds of Death, and shoots another two. Jon Pertwee blows away two Ogrons in Day of the Daleks, and melts another 4 Ice Warriors in Monster of Peladon, and shoots various Primords with a fire extinguisher that is as lethal to a Primord as a magnum is to a human. Tom Baker shoots a giant rat in Talons, gun down two Sontarans in Invasion of Time, Hartnell blows the Daleks up in the Chase and has a good laugh about it. "I THINK WE'LL LEAVE THEM A LITTLE SOMETHING TO REMEMBER US BY HMM." How are those any different.

Colin stomps on a cop's head in Attack, Hartnell smashed a guys head in with a shovel, Pertwee beat a sailor senseless, Troughton kicked a Dalek off a cliff, Tom jumped on a guy from a construction site and punched him and smashed a chair over another guys head!

Colin smothered Shockeye to death, Pertwee tried to blow up the Master, Patrick Troughton blew up the last two Dominators, Hartnell tried to shoot Koquillion in the face at point blank range, Pertwee sent Aggedor to maul Eckersly to death, Tom poisoned Solon and was cavalier about dissecting Morbius when the latter was unconscious.

Colin stabs a Cyberman in the chest, Tom told Leela where to knife the Sontaran, Hartnell clobbered people with his stick.

Colin's morality fits in perfectly with the Doctor. Unlike Tennant with his hatred of guns one minute, and condemning people to eternal torture the next. Colin never tortured or killed for revenge like Tennant. He only killed when he had to like all the other Docs. Yet the received wisdom is that he was too violent.

I don't agree there. Infact I think Eccleston's Doctor is more like the Sixth than any of the others.

I used to think that as he has a similar arc of starting out darker and warming as time goes on, but he really isn't.

9 is basically just Angel and Xena. A hero who has done terrible things, but who meets a young blonde woman who he falls in love with. In both Xena and 9's cases they rescue this young woman from mediocrity, whilst she holds back his dark side.

There is a scene from a Xena episode where she tries to attack a village that killed her dad and Gabrielle gets in her way and stops her from going crazy, that is repeated beat for beat with 9 and the Dalek.

Given RTD's love for 90s/00s American genre series its obvious this is what he was channelling.

Its all wrong for the Doctor of course, but then we all know why.

I don't know if it's fair to say they played it up, but as many of them were BBC insiders and were inevitably swayed by institutional attitudes to the show,

I think they did. Look at this quote from RTD.

I love the old Doctor Who (1963). But, even with all that love, you have to admit that the name of the programme had become a joke and its reputation had become a cheap joke at that - you know rubber monsters and shaky sets. And Chris (Christopher Eccleston), as one of the country's leading actors, by being willing to step up to the line and take on that part has proved himself to be magnificent and has turned it around. So now you get actors like David Tennant who is the next generation and just about one of the best actors in the world. David himself says he wouldn't have touched this part if Chris hadn't done it because the part had become a joke. But Chris has salvaged it and made it new

What a huge fucking insult to Colin and McCoy that after them the role had become such a joke if Chris hadn't been charitable then no one would have played it.

They did down the success of Classic Who as much as they could to big themselves up. In all fairness Colin and McCoy would probably always have got it worse as they were the last, but still this crap just heightened it.

burrunjor wrote:This kind of proves my point. The attitude is that Colin's Doctor on tv was so rubbish that he needed fixing. He didn't. Its great to give hm more stories, but he wasn't a dead end Doctor.

Would the Big Finish Colin audio stories really have had the same success if they'd just been more of the same of what we'd been getting on TV back then?

His Doctor is not a thug in any story.

Maybe 'thug' was a poor choice of words. What I meant was that in Big Finish, the elements and talents of his Doctor are more emphasised that aren't just about being an action hero.

Something which I suspect Saward was always clueless about

In the Twin Dilemma he is meant to be insane. The regeneration has gone wrong because of the poison. This is set up in Caves of Androzani, when he says the regeneration feels different.

Yes but that's a storyline they didn't need to do at all, that was inevitably going to by design give some viewers a shockingly bad impression of him they needn't have.

Which I think is the point really. There was a definite cynicism to JNT's era, and the cheapness and failings of execution made that cynicism all the more naked as a determined end in itself (i.e. Time-Flight falls apart quickly, and all we're left with is the intent to have the Master in it for the sake of pandering fanservice at the expense of anything else). And that's what I think fans don't like about the era.

Other than that story where he is meant to be crazy, Colin is never more violent than any other Doctor. Like I said its just received wisdom that he was and that's why the show got canned.

No, I do think he was such an overcorrection of Davison's pacifism that it was genuinely unnerving. All Doctors have been violent, but most didn't exhibit such an early critical mass of such violence in just their first three stories.

The other thing is, with the execution often being off and lacking the required slickness, viewers found it harder to just digest the visceral effect, and so the scenes of violence prompted more nagging, unsettling questions of why that action had to be done by the Doctor. Questions of the action and drama, and whys and wherefores that came to slowly erode suspension of disbelief.

Colin kicks a guy into acid, Tom kicks a guy into a meat grinder. What's the difference?

Tom didn't. Infact as the scene makes clear, Tom was actually trying to save Harrison from the meat-grinder before his fate got sealed.

And as for the difference.... well in the Varos example, Colin could've snuck away up the stairs all along whilst the guards are distracted. He didn't need to tap them on the shoulder to ensure they weren't.

Yes Colin actually pushes neither in, but he's instrumental in both falling in for reasons that don't make sense and leave viewers with the reaction "what the hell just happened?"

Infact Andrew Cartmel has said he openly felt that way about the acid bath scene at the time. So what's the difference between him and the Tavern Crowd?

Colin shoots some Cybermen about to attack him, Patrick Troughton mows down 4 Ice Warriors in Seeds of Death, and shoots another two. Jon Pertwee blows away two Ogrons in Day of the Daleks, and melts another 4 Ice Warriors in Monster of Peladon, and shoots various Primords with a fire extinguisher that is as lethal to a Primord as a magnum is to a human. Tom Baker shoots a giant rat in Talons, gun down two Sontarans in Invasion of Time, Hartnell blows the Daleks up in the Chase and has a good laugh about it. "I THINK WE'LL LEAVE THEM A LITTLE SOMETHING TO REMEMBER US BY HMM." How are those any different.

The difference is, in the examples with Troughton, Pertwee or Tom, they're usually defending Earth from invaders, or themselves from pursuers.

In Colin's example he goes specifically to the Cybermen's turf and ends up achieving nothing. And that just seems to be the wider problem I think. The violent incidents in Pertwee or Tom's era seemed like organic by-products of a thrilling adventure.

In Colin's era, it seems to be the case that violent incidents happen because it's on a check-list somewhere, along with continuity references, Tardis soap scenes, Peri's leotards, etc. It doesn't feel like it's being done with heart anymore, or like anyone behind the scenes cares.

Furthermore the Cybermen are almost shown as so clumsy and calamitous that it inevitably raises questions about how in danger we can believe he really was.

Look at this quote from RTD.

I love the old Doctor Who (1963). But, even with all that love, you have to admit that the name of the programme had become a joke and its reputation had become a cheap joke at that - you know rubber monsters and shaky sets. And Chris (Christopher Eccleston), as one of the country's leading actors, by being willing to step up to the line and take on that part has proved himself to be magnificent and has turned it around. So now you get actors like David Tennant who is the next generation and just about one of the best actors in the world. David himself says he wouldn't have touched this part if Chris hadn't done it because the part had become a joke. But Chris has salvaged it and made it new

What a huge fucking insult to Colin and McCoy that after them the role had become such a joke if Chris hadn't been charitable then no one would have played it.

Why's it an insult to them? He never names Colin or McCoy and certainly never implies it was their fault. AND he's relating via hearsay what Tennant's opinion was.

They did down the success of Classic Who as much as they could to big themselves up.

Well JNT did the same thing to his predecessor Williams. So where does the buck stop?

I've never liked his BF audios. The worst thing is when they started having his Doctor dress in a blue jacket on the cover. They're obviously so embarrassed and ashamed by the very idea of this particular incarnation that they even feel like they have to meddle with the guy's clothes. He's a big cuddly bear in the audios, lacking the anti-hero qualities and no-nonsense attitude that he had in Season 22. No, the BF version is only for fans that complain incessantly about every little detail relating to the Sixth Doctor's early characterization. It seems to me that a bunch of fanboys got together to try and fix something that was never broken in the first place.

The difference is, in the examples with Troughton, Pertwee or Tom, they're usually defending Earth from invaders, or themselves from pursuers.

In Colin's example he goes specifically to the Cybermen's turf and ends up achieving nothing. And that just seems to be the wider problem I think. The violent incidents in Pertwee or Tom's era seemed like organic by-products of a thrilling adventure.

In Colin's era, it seems to be the case that violent incidents happen because it's on a check-list somewhere, along with continuity references, Tardis soap scenes, Peri's leotards, etc. It doesn't feel like it's being done with heart anymore, or like anyone behind the scenes cares.

Furthermore the Cybermen are almost shown as so clumsy and calamitous that it inevitably raises questions about how in danger we can believe he really was.

The feels like its splitting hairs for the sake of it. He goes to the Cybermen's home turf because they have captured and tortured a man who helped to save the human race.

People go on about how "Oh Lytton didn't deserve his help, he wasn't a good guy, he was just paid by the good guys."

Not true at all. Lytton was working for the Daleks, but its made clear in Resurrection that he is under their control. They even say LYTTON CONTINUES TO RESIST OUR CONTROL".

With the Cryons meanwhile they did hire him, but even then Lytton proved his loyalty. He withstood torture to protect the Cryons and by extension humanity, he handed the Doctor the sonic lance which proved instrumental in bringing them down. If the Doctor had just left him that would have been too callous.

Okay he didn't save Lytton, but he had to try. Also if you want to get technical then Troughton got captured after mowing down 4 Ice Warriors and would have died had it not been for Jamie, Pertwee had to be saved by the Brig after blowing away two Ogrons etc.

All of Colin's violent actions have a justification to them.

And as for the difference.... well in the Varos example, Colin could've snuck away up the stairs all along whilst the guards are distracted. He didn't need to tap them on the shoulder to ensure they weren't.

Yes Colin actually pushes neither in, but he's instrumental in both falling in for reasons that don't make sense and leave viewers with the reaction "what the hell just happened?"

Again how is that worse than Hartnell smashing a guys skull in with a shovel, or Pertwee mauling a guy to death with his pet Aggedor, or Tom poisoning Solon, or blowing that guy up in the Ribos Operation? Those two guards were going to throw Colin into acid and they were armed. Whose to say he would have been able to get out in time without them noticing, considering they were in the process of throwing him in? In a few seconds they'd have probably looked round and caught him at gun point then what would he have done?

Well JNT did the same thing to his predecessor Williams. So where does the buck stop?

Infact Andrew Cartmel has said he openly felt that way about the acid bath scene at the time. So what's the difference between him and the Tavern Crowd?

Just because people involved in the classic era do it, don't make it alright. The Classic era producers obviously weren't perfect all of the time. Hinchcliff for instance was wrong to add in pre Hartnell era Doctors.

Still even then there is a difference. JNT did say that respectively he disagreed with William's more humorous approach.

With the Fitzroy Crowd its not even that they insulted Classic Who. Not everyone who does an adaptation of something is going to like the previous version. In fact that's often WHY they do a new version, so in that respect the Fitzroy are no different.

What is terrible is that their version was first of all a sequel. Most people will reboot something to literally get a clean break, and they absolutely had the option to do that. New Who is basically written as a remake for the first 4 years barring Sarah Jane.

Second they trashed the original to justify their changes to it, and played up the received wisdom about 80s Who in the process and did down the originals' success.

According to the narrative of the Fitzroy Crowd basically it goes like this.

Classic DW was never popular outside of the UK until they came along.

Women never liked the show until they came along, it was only liked by nerdy men and never had any mainstream appeal.

That it was completely forgotten about in the 90s/00s and never made any new fans that decade, that people only remembered it to laugh at it.

That any new version of DW couldn't have been like the original in any way as that show was a joke.

With this in mind why not reboot it completely? The reason they didn't was because clearly the Fitzroy wanted to cash in on Classic Who's success. It was the very opposite of what they said, but they clearly had no interest in actually continuing it.

IMO the likes of RTD, Moffat and Chinballs aren't even fans. Sure they probably watched it growing up, but I don't think they have watched it since.

Instead I think DW was a cash cow for them, and that they saw it as a way to launch their own projects (RTD for instance wanted to launch Torchwood as Excalibur in the early 00s but it was rejected, so he later spun it off from DW.Similarly it was through DW that Gatiss' profile was raised, that Moff was able to get Sherlock etc.)

The "DW is all about change" lie, constantly making out that they were super fans, as well as doing down Classic Who and its success to the point where fan consensus became "well who cares if its not like Classic DW, that was an embarassing failure anyway" was their way of covering their tracks.

Why's it an insult to them? He never names Colin or McCoy and certainly never implies it was their fault. AND he's relating via hearsay what Tennant's opinion was.

He doesn't have to. He basically says after them the part had become a cheap joke to the point where no actor would want to play it until he came along.

Commander Maxil wrote:He's a big cuddly bear in the audios, lacking the anti-hero qualities and no-nonsense attitude that he had in Season 22.

I mostly disagree, and would say I was largely happy enough with the new characterization he got under Big Finish.

However there was a point in the first Davros audio where I thought they'd made an overcorrection that sat very wrong with me and still does.

It's where Davros is holding a PA secretary hostage and has tampered with her ear-piece to give off a sonic blast that will kill her.

The Doctor has taken a gun from someone and Davros challenges "We've been here before, Doctor. You won't shoot."

The Doctor replies "You're right..."

Which just baffled me, because there would be no moral dilemma in the Doctor shooting Davros dead then if it saves the life of his hostage.

I think the story was great up until that point but the final climax is where it gets insultingly dumb.

burrunjor wrote:The feels like its splitting hairs for the sake of it. He goes to the Cybermen's home turf because they have captured and tortured a man who helped to save the human race.

People go on about how "Oh Lytton didn't deserve his help, he wasn't a good guy, he was just paid by the good guys."

Not true at all. Lytton was working for the Daleks, but its made clear in Resurrection that he is under their control. They even say LYTTON CONTINUES TO RESIST OUR CONTROL".

With the Cryons meanwhile they did hire him, but even then Lytton proved his loyalty. He withstood torture to protect the Cryons and by extension humanity, he handed the Doctor the sonic lance which proved instrumental in bringing them down. If the Doctor had just left him that would have been too callous.

Okay he didn't save Lytton, but he had to try.

Well I can only go by what bothered me first time round about the Doctor's actions at the end. Which is that they're belated and reckless (an impression solidified by the way he tries to rip Lytton's appendages off, without seeming thought to whether he might be doing more bodily damage to him that way) and it's almost no surprise they fail.

I don't trust or get the sense this is a Doctor who entirely knows what he's doing (which is a common feeling with Saward's writing), whereas usually in the earlier examples we did.

I think the problem most fans have with Luytton's redemption is that it feels tacked on, and that final downbeat climax feels tacked on. And because for them it wasn't a satisfying climax, the Doctor's violence is remembered for reasons that led to a bad aftertaste rather than a satisfying conclusion.

Again how is that worse than Hartnell smashing a guys skull in with a shovel, or Pertwee mauling a guy to death with his pet Aggedor, or Tom poisoning Solon, or blowing that guy up in the Ribos Operation?

I don't know if Hartnell smashed the guy's skull in. Rendered him unconscious certainly. But that's hardly the same thing as causing him to die in acid.

Most of those examples are clear in their means to an end. The Doctor has to stop Morbius' revival because of the devastation he'll go on to cause again. The Doctor has to sneak past the Graff who has imposed the bomb and a duty of martyrdom on him.

Those two guards were going to throw Colin into acid and they were armed. Whose to say he would have been able to get out in time without them noticing, considering they were in the process of throwing him in? In a few seconds they'd have probably looked round and caught him at gun point then what would he have done?

Who's to say? The final shot is him climbing up a ladder at the back of the room out of the guards' line of sight, making it clear he could've done that all along.

I hardly think it's a defence to say the guards might have noticed him as he snuck away, so he might as well tap them on the shoulder to make sure they do.

What is terrible is that their version was first of all a sequel. Most people will reboot something to literally get a clean break, and they absolutely had the option to do that. New Who is basically written as a remake for the first 4 years barring Sarah Jane.

Because a sequel is what they wanted to make, and a sequel is what was wanted by the majority of fans. I hardly think that's a crime.

Yes a reboot in hindsight was what probably would've sat better, but that's not what the demand at the time was for. The fans wanted a continuation.

And I'm pretty sure the plan was to gradually bring back more classic elements and form more bridges like Sarah Jane as the series went on and they became more secure at the viewing figures.

Second they trashed the original to justify their changes to it, and played up the received wisdom about 80s Who in the process and did down the originals' success.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that they're obliged to be only positive about a period they think didn't work and they had problems with.

Yes many of them have imposed a certain tribalistic consensus on what fandom should think and what their opinions should be, but two wrongs don't make a right.

According to the narrative of the Fitzroy Crowd basically it goes like this.

Classic DW was never popular outside of the UK until they came along.

Women never liked the show until they came along, it was only liked by nerdy men and never had any mainstream appeal.

Well not quite. The narrative is that the show was popular in the 60's and 70's (and that popular heyday is what New Who should be aiming for), but that since then at some point (Season 18 onwards) the audience dwindled or were alienated, and it became a show aimed exclusively at their nerdy male demographic and no-one else.

And there's plenty of fannish excesses in the 80's that justify that impression that the show failed to be even interested in being made for the mainstream anymore.

That any new version of DW couldn't have been like the original in any way as that show was a joke.

Again, Big Finish I think proves otherwise. Some of them in the Tavern crowd were committed to a version of Doctor Who that was like Classic, but could work in a modern context.

Trouble is, once RTD made the dumbed down reboot version, I think suddenly they got blindsided by its success, and were doffing their cap to RTD's approach and looking at their own audio work thinking "okay this is too high-brown and wouldn't get a mainstream audience because...x, y, z"

With this in mind why not reboot it completely? The reason they didn't was because clearly the Fitzroy wanted to cash in on Classic Who's success.

I don't buy that at all. I think they've been dicks in a lot of ways but I can't believe there wasn't some altruistic desire on their part to continue the legacy for selfless reasons or just to have the show back.

The "DW is all about change" lie, constantly making out that they were super fans, as well as doing down Classic Who and its success to the point where fan consensus became "well who cares if its not like Classic DW, that was an embarassing failure anyway" was their way of covering their tracks.

It had a cultish effect where we couldn't criticize New Who without some tosser pulling something from the past as a counter-example to 'pwn' us, but I don't think that was the intent.

The reason RTD says in a rather crass way that the old Doctor never looks back, is because he was trying to create an air that we were going to see this new Doctor Who go places it hadn't before.

Furthermore I don't see what's wrong per se with them thinking Classic Who failed. Surely if you're bringing the show back you don't want people who thought it was all wonderful and there was never anything wrong with it, you want people who recognise how to avoid its failings and work on its strengths to make the best version of Doctor Who they could.

Obviously we didn't get that though. We got a mess and one that turned gradually more and more cultish as the success went to RTD's head. But in principle there's nothing wrong with having criticisms in mind.

He doesn't have to. He basically says after them the part had become a cheap joke to the point where no actor would want to play it until he came along.

No he didn't say 'no actor' would want to play it. He just said Tennant was one example of an actor who didn't, and who RTD wanted.

And he was simply describing the show's status as he truthfully saw it.

I think its best just to call it a day on this convo now as its going on too long and completely derailed the post. Maybe it should be split into a separate thread?

All I'll say is this. The Fiztroy Crowd had no real love for the original and saw it as a cash cow. You can't sya they wanted a sequel when they wrote it as a remake. (Different origins for the Master, Cybermen, etc.)

They wanted to cash in on the original and they did down its success to big themselves up IMO.

Fair enough.

To get back on topic then, there's no way I'd pay that much for his autograph.