On March 26th nuwho is 15 years old.

By that same point truwho had produced:

Four undisputed Great Doctor's.
The Daleks, The Cybermen, The Master, The Sontarans, The Ice Warriors, The Sea Devils, The Silurians, The Time Lords, Omega, Rassillon.
Gallifrey, The concept of Regeneration, Some if not all the greatest companions in the shows history, the concept of multi-Doctor stories...

And of course The greatest stories in the programme's entire canon.
From An Unearthly Child to The Talons Of Weng-Chiang.

My question is, being as unbiased as neutral and as honest as you can be can anyone come up with anything nuwho has created over the last 15 years that belongs in the top tier of Doctor Who creations?

A Doctor, stories, plot arcs, concepts, aliens? I can only think of the Weeping Angels and even they outstayed their welcome by  The Angels Take Manhattan.

The Time War I thought was a good concept....

...at first...

...but sadly wasn't stuck to.

Dalek was kind of a top tier story, except that it's basically just a pint-sized version of Power of the Daleks.

I liked Unquiet Dead and Rings of Akhaten too, but they're basically just riffing on Enlightenment and Snakedance.

The truth is, Classic Who's successes owed largely to a willingness to experiment with trial and error, and occasionally produce unforgettable, outstanding results.

New Who owes its success to playing safe and populist and not even trusting the audience to be able to handle anything too sci-fi.

I think the Tardis itself is really the most interesting concept in Doctor Who. And all the NuWho console rooms looked like shite except for the season 7 one which I'll admit was pretty decent. The current one is godawful.

Almost consistently every time they tried to reintroduce an old enemy they completely fucked it up. And what the hell is this thing with turning everyone into Cybermen - First it was CyberBrig, now Cyber-Time Lords. Even if I heard that stuff years into the show after I had already seen how bad NuWho was, I wouldn't have believed it. At this point why don't they just turn the Doctor into a Cyberman and be done with it?

As far as new enemies go, the Angels are really the only interesting one. I think they would have held up well if they showed up in the classic series. I think if they had showed up, say in season 14 or 15 with 4 and Leela they would be remembered fondly as one of the more interesting enemies in Doctor Who.

There is very little actual science fiction in New Who, which is for the most part why I don't like it. You don't have to stand there at a blackboard and mathematically prove to me your theories on the time vortex are correct (although I do like that sort of thing), but they have to be somewhat logical, internally consistent, and above all thought provoking - which classic who always was. With New Who they don't even try.

The Weeping Angels were great idea, though they should have been rested after Series 5. In their original appearance, the Silence were a formidable enemy with a great concept behind them, but the story arc they came to represent was a contrived mess that didn't even gel with what we were initially told about them.

Matt Smith was an inspired choice, and the 11th Doctor as written in Series 5 was a worthy iteration of the character, but he'd been reduced to a Tennant clone by the end of his run. Peter Capaldi, the actor, was one of Doctor Who's best ever casting decisions, but the 12th Doctor and his era were largely disastrous.

NuWho did quite a few things that could have been up there with top tier Doctor Who, but I find myself incapable of praising them without adding at least one major caveat. Same goes for the stories. There are several episodes based on strong sci-fi concepts, but all of them suffer from some combination of ADHD pacing, soap opera mawkishness, forced humour, deus ex machina endings, and (from 2015 onwards) anti-male propaganda.

Comparing what these two shows achieved within the same time frame really puts into perspective how vastly superior the original show was.

As of last week, NuWho has managed to burn through FOURTEEN Doctors (one of whom walked out in disgust, while another was sacked because of his genitalia) in the time it took TruWho to reach its fourth. All four of those Doctors were universally respected, while only one of NuWho's is remembered fondly by the general public, who've been left with a completely warped idea of what the character should be.

TruWho had a concrete sense of identity that had remained consistent despite significant changes since 1963, each era transitioning almost seamlessly into the next. NuWho, on the other hand, becomes a completely different show every time an executive producer steps down because the Fitzroy clique are too vain and egotistical to work with characters and story arcs left behind by their predecessors.

TruWho was beloved by families up and down the country, and it's peak of popularity was yet to come, while NuWho's viewing figures are in the gutter because it consciously went out of its way to alienate anyone who doesn't belong to a fringe, extremist political faction.

TruWho had another eleven years left before it would go out on a high; NuWho is already on its deathbed and its cancellation will be celebrated by the legions of former fans it intentionally estranged itself from.

Yeah the only time the Doctor in New Who actually resembled character of the Doctor consistently is series 5 Matt Smith. I can see glimpses of the character with Capaldi in the few episodes of his that weren't plagued by horrible writing. None of the other New Who incarnations even came close.

I watch Doctor in Distress and wish for the good old days when the show was cancelled and we wanted it back, as opposed to now when it is so bad that we want it cancelled.

I just saw Vincent and the doctor trending on twitter for some reason.

Reminded me, that apart from Murray Gold's usual mawkish Bollocks, and the alien chicken, VATD probably could be "worthy of the diamond logo" as a who group mate of mine in the 80s used to say...

Depressing to think of it like this.

The only things I think nu poo has done well is the odd good bit of acting and direction (Jacobi and Harper) and the odd episode, and most depressing is that the man behind one of them (Blink) would go on to become an even less suitable showrunner than Davies. Other strong stories (Sleep No More) provided glimmers of hope but the negative reaction from the herd means that's all they'll be. Even Torchwood, in my opinion, has had better ideas largely than its parent show!

Virtually everything else - dialogue, monsters, timelords - has been fucked beyond belief, which is ironic as the new show is technically still underage.

What a sad indictment of the moronicity of the modern age.

ClockworkOcean wrote:The Weeping Angels were great idea, though they should have been rested after Series 5. In their original appearance, the Silence were a formidable enemy with a great concept behind them, but the story arc they came to represent was a contrived mess that didn't even gel with what we were initially told about them.

Matt Smith was an inspired choice, and the 11th Doctor as written in Series 5 was a good iteration of the character, but he'd been reduced to a Tennant clone by the end of his run. Peter Capaldi, the actor, was one of Doctor Who's best ever casting decisions, but the 12th Doctor and his era were disasterous.

NuWho did quite a few things that could have been up there with top tier Doctor Who, but I find myself incapable of praising them without adding at least one major caveat. Same goes for the stories. There are several episodes based on strong sci-fi concepts, but all of them suffer from some combination of ADHD pacing, soap opera mawkishness, forced humour, deus ex machina endings, and (from 2015 onwards) anti-male propaganda.

Comparing what these two shows acheived within the same time frame really puts into perspective how vastly superior the original show was.

As of last week, NuWho has managed to burn through FOURTEEN Doctors (one of whom walked out in disgust, while another was sacked because of his genitalia) in the time it took TruWho to reach its fourth. All four of those Doctors were universally respected, while only one of NuWho's is remembered fondly by the general public, who've been left with a completely warped idea of what the character should be.

TruWho had a concrete sense of identity that had remained consistent despite significant changes since 1963, each era transitioning almost seamlessly into the next. NuWho, on the other hand, becomes a completely different show every time an executive producer steps down because the Fitzroy clique are too vain and egotistical to work with characters and story arcs left behind by their predecessors.

TruWho was beloved by familes up and down the country, and it's peak of popularity was yet to come, while NuWho's viewing figures are in the gutter because it conciously went out of its way to alienate anyone who doesn't belong to a fringe, extremist political faction.

TruWho had another eleven years left before it would go out on a high; NuWho is already on its deathbed and its cancellation will be celebrated by the legions of former fans it intentionally estranged itself from.

Couldn’t have put it better myself.