Could Saward have departed on a better note than Trial?

Tanmann wrote:Is Rob still trying to get my attention?

"Boo hoo hoo! I HATE you Eric Saward! It's all YOUR fault my favourite programme got cancelled! I'm going to cry about it for the next 3 decades"

I would have preferred JNT to have left first - even if it took BBC management to fire the guy as it looked like he was there for life if it was down to him (unless management offered him an alternative role). Ideally he would have gone after Five Doctors or Androzani at the latest. I personally regard his first 4 seasons as successful. Even season 22 is good but i would be interested to have seen that under a diferent producer.

For Eric - the question being asked - I would say he should then have gone after Revelation of the Daleks but preferably in the context of JNT having already gone. That would have given Eric a year without the dead weight of JNT round his kneck.

Where that would have left season 23 onwards I don't know but then i am not that fussed as there is so little of any merit after Revelation. BBC Management didn't have any faith in the show. I understand that Jon Powell is quoted as saying of JNT "I wanted him to fuck off and solve it – or die, really, but it had probably gone beyond solving. The only way of resuscitating it would have been to put a new producer on it – but we didn't want to resuscitate it". I would guess that attitude - i.e., BBC Management didn't want to resuscitate the show - would have prevailed even if a new producer had been on the team so we might still have till got a hiatus and then a slow painful death.

stengos wrote:I would have preferred JNT to have left first - even if it took BBC management to fire the guy as it looked like he was there for life if it was down to him (unless management offered him an alternative role). Ideally he would have gone after Five Doctors or Androzani at the latest. I personally regard his first 4 seasons as successful. Even season 22 is good but i would be interested to have seen that under a diferent producer.

For Eric - the question being asked - I would say he should then have gone after Revelation of the Daleks but preferably in the context of JNT having already gone. That would have given Eric a year without the dead weight of JNT round his kneck.

Where that would have left season 23 onwards I don't know but then i am not that fussed as there is so little of any merit after Revelation. BBC Management didn't have any faith in the show. I understand that Jon Powell is quoted as saying of JNT "I wanted him to fuck off and solve it – or die, really, but it had probably gone beyond solving. The only way of resuscitating it would have been to put a new producer on it – but we didn't want to resuscitate it". I would guess that attitude - i.e., BBC Management didn't want to resiscitate the show - would have prevailed even if a new producer had been on the team so we might still have till got a hiatus and then a slow painful death.

From reading the Richard Marson book with that quote from Powell, I think the problem was that as far as Powell was concerned (and I agree with him here) JNT had so transformed and internalized the show into a fan niche (in a way it wasn't back in 1979), that it became the show's identity, and thus hard to imagine finding another producer who understood that fan niche, or could make the show cross over back to the mainstream again.

In some ways The Five Doctors would've been JNT's best swansong to depart on, but in others it was where that problem had already become cemented. Season 19 was at least the right side of mainstream with the occasional fan treat, so it probably would've been better if that's where JNT departed, as it might've been easier to pass to someone who didn't have to continue a more fan-pleasing legacy (perhaps if the K9 and Company spin-off had taken off, he could've moved on to that).

A problem is that JNT was probably best suited to do some kind of Variety show. But the problem was, the Variety department in the BBC was *very* cliquey back then, and it wasn't so easy to get a foot in the door from outside, and that's another reason I think he got stuck on Doctor Who so long.

And of course it's clear in hindsight that Saward just wasn't comfortable writing or doctoring the more sentimental continuity-based stories that JNT and Levine insisted on, or the kind of kiddie ethics the Doctor was supposed to subscribe to. Terrance Dicks was a natural at that. Saward not so much.

I think Saward's writing tended toward the dark, cynical and even the sociopathic. But done the right way, that could often work really well, with an affirming harsh truths take on the world-building we see on Varos and Necros (I know he didn't write Varos, but it kind of was more what he was going for).

When he had a chance to do his own thing and make the program his way, with Earthshock and Revelation of the Daleks, it really worked. But when he had to do the more fan-aimed moralizing, sentimental stuff, it just came off as confused, insincere and a bit tasteless. He made a bad mix with it.

So I can believe that Saward could've been a far better show visionary than his era led us to believe, if he'd been allowed to.

Tanmann wrote:From reading the Richard Marson book with that quote from Powell, I think the problem was that as far as Powell was concerned (and I agree with him here) JNT had so transformed and internalized the show into a fan niche (in a way it wasn't back in 1979), that it became the show's identity, and thus hard to imagine finding another producer who understood that fan niche, or could make the show cross over back to the mainstream again.

Unfortunately I don't have the book. I am quoting from a Guardian newspaper review of it, but I would argue Management were fundamentally not interested in the show otherwise they would have got someone in as a new producer and empowered them to undertake the fundamental changes needed to move the show away from the fan niche you say Powell disliked. Its how shows change. JNT made a radical departure from GW so I don't see why AN Other couldn't have done so in the wake of JNT's departure had he gone at this point. Powell et al didn't want to know. Fair enough but thats on them. Powel's shifting the blame on to JNT seems an excuse to me. Also, Powell had issues with the casting choices JNT made, specifically Colin and Langford. So it wasn't all about "excessive" continuity and "fan niches".

In some ways The Five Doctors would've been JNT's best swansong to depart on, but in others it was where that problem had already become cemented. Season 19 was at least the right side of mainstream with the occasional fan treat, so it probably would've been better if that's where JNT departed, as it might've been easier to pass to someone who didn't have to continue a more fan-pleasing legacy (perhaps if the K9 and Company spin-off had taken off, he could've moved on to that).

A problem is that JNT was probably best suited to do some kind of Variety show. But the problem was, the Variety department in the BBC was *very* cliquey back then, and it wasn't so easy to get a foot in the door from outside, and that's another reason I think he got stuck on Doctor Who so long.

I think the problem was that JNT had a cushy role at the BBC - very nice pay, position of power over others, the money coming in from American conventions, the other perks he had - and decided he was going to stay stuck there, demanding the BBC give him a new role. He could actually have done what hundreds of thousands of people do across the UK every year and move on when they get into a rut. At the very least one can say that Eric had the gumption to do that.

And of course it's clear in hindsight that Saward just wasn't comfortable writing or doctoring the more sentimental continuity-based stories that JNT and Levine insisted on, or the kind of kiddie ethics the Doctor was supposed to subscribe to. Terrance Dicks was a natural at that. Saward not so much.

I agree. I cannot quote the source but i am sure Eric has said himself he got frustrated with all the emphasis on continuity based stories although i am not as convinced as you that it was that big a problem for the audience in stories like Warriors, Attack or even Revelation. History dramas do okay with audiences and there is shit loads of continuity in those to accommodate. Unless your name is Phillipa Gregory of-course in which case you write whatever bollocks comes to mind at three O'clock in the morning regardless.

I think Saward's writing tended toward the dark, cynical and even the sociopathic. But done the right way, that could often work really well, with an affirming harsh truths take on the world-building we see on Varos and Necros (I know he didn't write Varos, but it kind of was more what he was going for).

I see the dark, sense the cynical but don't recognise the sociopathic. Yes there was a high death count in some of his stories (e.g., resurrection) but that sort of stuff happens when your dealing with alien creatures intent on invading planets otherwise minding their own business. Lucas blew up enture planets killing billions but no-one calls him a sociopath. To my mind Eric's writing / script editing gave Davison's / Baker's stories a gritty edge. Okay there was no on-screen mourning when Adric got blown to bits but why would one do that? That character was a twat.

When he had a chance to do his own thing and make the program his way, with Earthshock and Revelation of the Daleks, it really worked. But when he had to do the more fan-aimed moralizing, sentimental stuff, it just came off as confused, insincere and a bit tasteless. He made a bad mix with it.

I don't recognise this either. Warriors for instance seemed to have a lot of straight forward moralizing in it - not at all tasteless, confused or insincere. Doctor seeks to avert a war between two species he cares and has respect for, works as hard as he can to avoid conflict despite mounting odds and then eventually realises he cannot achieve his ideal solution and has to go for the drastic option. He has to change his approach when he realises the faction of Silurians he comes up against in Warriors are in no way responsive to the compromise he sought and nearly achieved in his Pertwee persona. In one way the Doctor appears indecisive and constantly changing his position but in another way its life - having principles but responding to both the world around you and changing circumstances such that your plans have to change. Eric was good at that. Cartmel went the other more simple route: the Doctor became an infallible super being who controlled all around him. That didn't work for me at all. The Doctor was never all powerful and shouldn't ever be so portrayed.[/quote]

stengos wrote:Unfortunately I don't have the book. I am quoting from a Guardian newspaper review of it, but I would argue Management were fundamentally not interested in the show otherwise they would have got someone in as a new producer and empowered them to undertake the fundamental changes needed to move the show away from the fan niche you say Powell disliked. Its how shows change. JNT made a radical departure from GW so I don't see why AN Other couldn't have done so in the wake of JNT's departure had he gone at this point. Powell et al didn't want to know. Fair enough but thats on them. Powel's shifting the blame on to JNT seems an excuse to me.

It's possible I'm placing too much stock in Powell's given reasons, simply because he seems the only figure willing to actually explain the thinking behind the corporation's disdain for the show, with anything even approaching sincerity.

But of course being slightly less insincere than Grade doesn't automatically make him sincere.

I see the dark, sense the cynical but don't recognise the sociopathic.
I see the dark, sense the cynical but don't recognise the sociopathic. Yes there was a high death count in some of his stories (e.g., resurrection) but that sort of stuff happens when your dealing with alien creatures intent on invading planets otherwise minding their own business. Lucas blew up enture planets killing billions but no-one calls him a sociopath.

Well, you inevitably do need the villains to be sociopathic, but the key is whether the heroes involved are an affirming enough counterweight to that, so that it doesn't characterize the story as a whole. In Star Wars they were. In Earthshock they were. In Resurrection, kind of, but in a way Davros wins that debate with the Doctor about his weakness. But more and more, the Doctor seems to become marginal, or shown to get it wrong, and lose credibility as the moral voice.

I don't recognise this either. Warriors for instance seemed to have a lot of straight forward moralizing in it - not at all tasteless, confused or insincere. Doctor seeks to avert a war between two species he cares and has respect for, works as hard as he can to avoid conflict despite mounting odds and then eventually realises he cannot achieve his ideal solution and has to go for the drastic option. He has to change his approach when he realises the faction of Silurians he comes up against in Warriors are in no way responsive to the compromise he sought and nearly achieved in his Pertwee persona. In one way the Doctor appears indecisive and constantly changing his position but in another way its life - having principles but responding to both the world around you and changing circumstances such that your plans have to change. Eric was good at that.

Well, I can say that the ending Johnny Byrne originally wrote, was (from what I've read) a lot more straight-forward than the one we eventually got.

It played out much the same until the Doctor returns to the chemical store. I don't know how hesitant he was about using the gas in this version, but I do know in this version his hesitation didn't lead to Preston being killed, and he didn't rant at Preston for wanting to defend herself, and he exhibited none of the last-minute mercies that got Vorshak killed (originally both of them live, and the Doctor says goodbye to them outside the Tardis, stressing to them the need to find 'another way' concerning the cold war).

So it seems there was more emphasis on a clearer recognition on the Doctor's part that reason hadn't worked, wasn't going to work and it was time to get ruthless. And mileage may vary but I honestly think I'd have been fine with the story were that the version that was televised.

Why Saward changed this, I don't know. He just said there should be more emphasis on the Doctor trying to save the Silurians and sing their virtues. Maybe it was under prodding by Levine. But for me it muddles the story and follows every supposed catharsis with a reversion to stubborn doubling down on his original stance, as though the Silurians haven't chosen their own destruction here.

You say that the Doctor recognizes the Silurians had forced his hand. Maybe in Byrne's original version he did, but every one of Saward's rewrites seems to regress him into someone incapable of comprehending when that moment has come.

A far cry from the Doctor of Pyramids of Mars who had to urge Michael Sheard to overcome his sentimentality and accept his brother was now irredeemable.

I'd have actually expected Saward to go the opposite route and have the Doctor be more ruthlessly pragmatic, so it was a shock to learn this. But I've always sensed that various elements of the serial are telling a completely different story to each other.

And when I use the word 'sociopathic' or 'tasteless' concerning Saward's writing, it's mainly concerning this story.

Regardless how much the Doctor respected the Silurians, I'd expect anyone with compassion to be jolted out of that respect by seeing them attack and massacre the humans here, or declare their genocidal intentions. That the Doctor wasn't, and still placed that old respect over human lives, and even doubled down on it (to the point of just expecting the humans to continue taking a bullet for his principles), was I think a sociopathic take on the Doctor's values (whether it was Saward's or Byrne's).

The Doctor respects humans but I wouldn't expect him to respect Hitler and yell at his enemies to forget all those he's killed and just be more peace-loving toward him just because he's human. Far from it being how life is, I just can't buy any reasonable, rational person could behave like the Doctor does here.

Sure, the Silurians may have been wronged (though to me even that's debatable, considering their genocidal actions and biological warfare even before the Brigadier bombed them....'hand of friendship' indeed...), but no more than the Thals were in the first Dalek story, and look how differently they turned out than Ictar and his genocidal footsoldiers.

Cartmel went the other more simple route: the Doctor became an infallible super being who controlled all around him. That didn't work for me at all. The Doctor was never all powerful and shouldn't ever be so portrayed.

Well I don't think the Doctor should be all-powerful or infallible. But I think it's important that the Doctor should come across as someone who's plausibly competent and sensible enough to have survived at least the 20-30 years he's been travelling and crusading in this dangerous universe.

The Doctor of Warriors, I don't believe has the sense, rationale or decisiveness it takes to survive a day in this universe (and only survives here because enough people were strangely willing to take a bullet for him), and moreover I find it near impossible to buy why his companions would still trust their life in him.

For me that broke the show.

Cartmel's approach may have been a bit of an overcorrection, but I'd say it was a needed mend all the same.

Tanmann wrote:
Well, I can say that the ending Johnny Byrne originally wrote, was (from what I've read) a lot more straight-forward than the one we eventually got.

It played out much the same until the Doctor returns to the chemical store. I don't know how hesitant he was about using the gas in this version, but I do know in this version his hesitation didn't lead to Preston being killed, and he didn't rant at Preston for wanting to defend herself, and he exhibited none of the last-minute mercies that got Vorshak killed (originally both of them live, and the Doctor says goodbye to them outside the Tardis, stressing to them the need to find 'another way' concerning the cold war).

Wow, that sounds incredibly shit. Lame arse city.

Thank fuck Saward changed it to a more stark and poignant ending.

Rob Filth wrote:

Tanmann wrote:
Well, I can say that the ending Johnny Byrne originally wrote, was (from what I've read) a lot more straight-forward than the one we eventually got.

It played out much the same until the Doctor returns to the chemical store. I don't know how hesitant he was about using the gas in this version, but I do know in this version his hesitation didn't lead to Preston being killed, and he didn't rant at Preston for wanting to defend herself, and he exhibited none of the last-minute mercies that got Vorshak killed (originally both of them live, and the Doctor says goodbye to them outside the Tardis, stressing to them the need to find 'another way' concerning the cold war).

Wow, that sounds incredibly shit. Lame arse city.

Thank fuck Saward changed it to a more stark and poignant ending.

Nah, Saward's ending made no sense.

Why would Preston willingly take a bullet for the Doctor after he called her pathetic just for having a survival instinct?

Only happens when fans who expect everyone to worship the Doctor as much as them have the production team's ear I suppose.

Tanmann wrote:

Rob Filth wrote:

Tanmann wrote:
Well, I can say that the ending Johnny Byrne originally wrote, was (from what I've read) a lot more straight-forward than the one we eventually got.

It played out much the same until the Doctor returns to the chemical store. I don't know how hesitant he was about using the gas in this version, but I do know in this version his hesitation didn't lead to Preston being killed, and he didn't rant at Preston for wanting to defend herself, and he exhibited none of the last-minute mercies that got Vorshak killed (originally both of them live, and the Doctor says goodbye to them outside the Tardis, stressing to them the need to find 'another way' concerning the cold war).

Wow, that sounds incredibly shit. Lame arse city.

Thank fuck Saward changed it to a more stark and poignant ending.

Nah, Saward's ending made no sense.

Why would Preston willingly take a bullet for the Doctor after he called her pathetic just for having a survival instinct?

Only happens when fans who expect everyone to worship the Doctor as much as them have the production team's ear I suppose.

He called her "pathetic" because her species had devised the means to wipe out all life on the planet and due to the subterfuge employed by a rival powerblock were fully intent to use it even at the cost of their own extinction, you utter total and complete moron.

What "survival instinct" is employed by committing collective suicide?

The stupid bitch deserved to die because like you she couldn't think outside the box to get the bigger picture.

Rob Filth wrote:He called her "pathetic" because her species had devised the means to wipe out all life on the planet and due to the subterfuge employed by a rival powerblock were fully intent to use it even at the cost of their own extinction, you utter total and complete moron.

What "survival instinct" is employed by committing collective suicide?

The stupid bitch deserved to die because like you she couldn't think outside the box to get the bigger picture.

So you can't explain why she would realistically take a bullet for the Doctor?

Thought not.

Tanmann wrote:

Rob Filth wrote:He called her "pathetic" because her species had devised the means to wipe out all life on the planet and due to the subterfuge employed by a rival powerblock were fully intent to use it even at the cost of their own extinction, you utter total and complete moron.

What "survival instinct" is employed by committing collective suicide?

The stupid bitch deserved to die because like you she couldn't think outside the box to get the bigger picture.

So you can't explain why she would realistically take a bullet for the Doctor?

Thought not.

She didn't, she was shot trying to dive for a gun to shoot a Sea Devil in the back when Tegan had already gestured to her that such an action was too risky to take, she didn't listen to Tegan's sensible advice and sweet karma baby.

She got what she deserved.

Rob Filth wrote:She didn't, she was shot trying to dive for a gun to shoot a Sea Devil in the back when Tegan had already gestured to her that such an action was too risky to take, she didn't listen to Tegan's sensible advice and sweet karma baby.

She got what she deserved.

Right...

So that's the 'karma' she gets for saving the Doctor's life.....?

You headcase...

Tanmann wrote:

Rob Filth wrote:She didn't, she was shot trying to dive for a gun to shoot a Sea Devil in the back when Tegan had already gestured to her that such an action was too risky to take, she didn't listen to Tegan's sensible advice and sweet karma baby.

She got what she deserved.

Right...

So that's the 'karma' she gets for saving the Doctor's life.....?

You headcase...

So did she take a bullet for the Doctor or not? Rob seems to be saying she didn't. Rather she was taking the opportunity to kill a Sea Devil and misjudged it so she got herself killed. Hardly the same as the woman sacrificing her self to protect the Doctor which I thought you were implying before. That suggests - and i may be missing sthg here - that your criticism of the plausibility of her motives isn't all that fair.

I am not trying to catch you out. Just genuinely interested.

stengos wrote:So did she take a bullet for the Doctor or not? Rob seems to be saying she didn't. Rather she was taking the opportunity to kill a Sea Devil and misjudged it so she got herself killed. Hardly the same as the woman sacrificing her self to protect the Doctor which I thought you were implying before. That suggests - and i may be missing sthg here - that your criticism of the plausibility of her motives isn't all that fair.

I am not trying to catch you out. Just genuinely interested.

Well the Sea Devil was under orders from Ictar to kill the Doctor (once he'd turned the pump off) and she did know that. And her actions distracted the Sea Devil in a way that did save the Doctor's life from an execution.

I'd say her motives were down to a mixture of fighting to escape and survive against a genocidal enemy that has them besieged, and having nothing to lose anyway, but since the Doctor was as marked for death as her until she acted, it was something of a noble sacrifice.

But then maybe I'm biased because I despised the Doctor in this story, and if it were me I'd have let that Sea Devil kill him.

So Preston's actions probably seem more noble to me than mine would've been.

He asked, I answered.

What's it got to do with you anyway?

Strange how I get the blame when Robfilth decides to troll a topic...

Who says it was aimed just at you?

iank wrote:Who says it was aimed just at you?

Okay, fair point.

Sometimes it's hard to tell with memes.

Rob Filth wrote:

The stupid bitch deserved to die

No, she should have become a companion. I think JNT and Saward were actually thinking about making Tara Ward a regular until they both realized just how much sperm would be lost to her every Thursday and Friday evenings. To prevent the great sperm flood of 1984 JNT and Saward decided to kill her off then and there. Kleenex were furious. Purchases of their products would have skyrocketed had Tara stayed on.

Pepsi Maxil Foley wrote:JNT and Saward were actually thinking about making Tara Ward a regular until they both realized just how much sperm would be lost to her every Thursday and Friday evenings. To prevent the great sperm flood of 1984 JNT and Saward decided to kill her off then and there.

She was quite nice...



Although that plastic jumpsuit doesn't do much for her.

I must admit I got my T. Ward's mixed up.

I've only watched WOD twice.
When it first aired and again about 15 years ago.
This entire time I thought you were talking about Tracy-Louise Ward
who played Katz in Timelash...

With that garish jacket on?

You're having a laugh aren't you?

If I were the Doctor I wouldn't have had her as companion, I'd have dropped my trousers and shat on her head instead.

When the dumb bitch can't listen to sensible advice which Tegan was giving her then tough titties baby.

Thank goodness the more sensible and realistic Tegan was companion instead of that stupid fucking cow.