Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel Thread

I thought that this was deserving of a thread, considering that a lot of members are more or less familiar with both shows, or in the case of me and Iank, consider it to be one of our favourite shows. Post some of your favourite episodes or say your piece on some characters.

For me the highlight seasons of Buffy are Seasons 2 and 7.

The main thing I remember about the show is the Angelus arc being a real gut-punch.

Cordelia's death in The Wish was also a real shock. And the return of Faith in Season 4 was great stuff too.

Angel was one I didn't quite get into, but unfortunately part of that was down to seeing the incoherent pre-watershed version on Channel 4. So I think that always put me at a distance from it from thenon.

I never got into Buffy, but I did watch my way through Angel a few times - liked the 5th season the best.

I was never big on Angel, tbh. I love season 4, and 5 is okay - Spike makes everything more fun - but the earlier seasons, esp 2 and 3, leave me cold. The reliance on Wolfram and Hart bored me. The ideal of an evil law firm was a fun one, but it should have been a one-season thing like a Buffy arc. It soon became clear they were just there to be generic baddies and there was no real plan for what to do with them. I cheered when the Beast massacred them in season 4.

Buffy and Angel are among the greatest genre series ever made. Along with Xena, they really set the template that almost all genre series after would follow from, Charmed, to New Who, to The Flash.

In their own way they are as important to their generation as True Who and the Original Trek were to theirs. You could argue that they are the big 5 genre tv series.

Having said that I don't know if Buffy's influence has always been positive. Though that says nothing about the show itself, just that other people shouldn't try and emulate its unique style and failn (hello RTD.)

For most the part Buffy and Angel kept a consistent quality. Seasons 1 and 2 of Angel are fantastic, whilst seasons 1-3 of Buffy are just as good. Season 4 of Buffy has some flaws, like Riley, but also some unbelievable highs like Spike and the Faith two parter, and Hush.

Season 3 of Angel is when things start to tail off a bit with Connor, Wesley being an arse etc. Similarly season 5 of Buffy is when things start to go wrong with Buffy/Spike, Anya etc.

Season 4 of Angel and season 6 of Buffy are a total dirge. Both not bothering about unless you're watching it all the way through IMO.

Season 7 of Buffy was a bit better, though disappointing in some ways, whilst Angel season 5 is one of the best seasons of either show (Spike and Angel's chemistry and rivalry is just a joy from start to finish.)

Overall that franchise ended on a high, just like true who, after a few ropey parts, but much like True Who overall it holds up brilliantly and will continue to in the decades too come.

Incidentally anybody here ever read Fray? Its brilliant! If they ever continue the franchise, then they should adapt Fray. Buffy and Angel's stories are done as far I'm concerned, but the franchise still has some life left in it.

In all honesty, I have actually never seen Buffy from start to finish. After checking this thread and hearing everyone else talk about it on others. I might be inspired to check it out....

Just don't listen to Burrunjour. Season 4 of Angel is one of the best seasons of TV ever.

My favourite characters are Willow, Tara, Xander, Spike and Giles.

Willow I like due to her character development. Whatever went awry in season 7 she felt like a shy, clever girl with low self-esteem who discovered her true self. I never felt she was secretly bisexual, just a lesbian who once thought she was straight (with Oz). The only negative was the daft end to season 6. It also affected her development in season 7 as Kennedy seemed like she was taking advantage.

Tara - a fantastic example of how to make a newer character, and a minority one, so popular - by making her sensitive, sympathetic and not introducing her too suddenly or shoehorning her into the Scooby gang straight away. It was a masterstroke to get an actress whom Hannigan had such good chemistry with, regardless of neither of them being LGBT themselves. It may have been a cliche she got killed off but it proved a memorable moment, even if the fact the surviving lesbian went postal proved an even bigger cliche!

Xander - the best comic sidekick. Got a bit sidelined after season 4 and was never quite as effective, though Anya's wackier style of humour did grow on me.

Spike - brilliant throughout, even in season 7, even if the 'mad' stuff did go on a bit. I actually thought his redemption later on worked well though, particularly the stuff with Principal Wood and the finale. Even his return in Angel didn't feel too jarring either.

Giles - should have got the 'Ripper' spinoff. The series suffered when he departed as a fulltime character.

Episode? Well to the famous classic ones I'd like to add 'Normal Again' from the maligned season 6. A brilliant way of leaving more questions than answers - which version of Buffy's reality is real?

Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 6. Finished this the other day. It's still my least favourite season - in fact I skipped it on last run - but I enjoyed it well enough this time. It has a number of issues. While most Buffy seasons start slow and then slowly but surely build up, season 6 - because of the way 5 ended - kicks off like a bat out of hell but then drops like a stone and has to start again after episode 3, and 4-6 seem incredibly inconsequential as a result. This makes the season arc a victim of its own cleverness, as it's far from clear where this is going and the only new villains - the Nerd Trio - initially seem as threatening as a paper bag. The depressing nature of some of the arcs, particularly Buffy's post-resurrection depression and Willow's increasing magic dependency, likewise doesn't help. And while I quite enjoy Spike's unrequited obsession with Buffy in season 5, and the more emotional but still platonic bond they share after Spike is re-ensouled in season 7, here their relationship is just kind of disgusting and disturbing. But it's not all bad news. There are some really good episodes. The opening 3 episodes are terrific, as stated, and there are some very entertaining more-or-less standalones like Tabula Rasa, the darkly comic Doublemeat Palace, Older and Far Away and the chillingly executed Normal Again (the one where Buffy thinks she's a mental patient in an asylum, with her whole life as the Slayer nothing but a delusion). And the final four episodes are as good as almost any other finale, as the disparate strands of the season come together and Tara's death sends Willow on a magical bender of murderously vengeful and increasingly apocalyptic proportions. This is all terrific stuff, and as dark, frightening and upsetting as the show gets. I'll take a moment here to mention Nicholas Brendon, who's perpetually underrated as Xander but is a total standout here. Everyone raves about Alyson Hannigan as the utterly out of control Willow - and they should, cause she's great - but poor Xander just looks in a state of complete and total shock and horrified disbelief as one of his friends is murdered, another is gunned down in front of him and his best friend since childhood completely loses her mind. And, of course, he finally gets to be the one to save the day, with his willingness and insistance that if Willow's going to destroy the world she should start with him being the thing that finally reawakens her humanity.
So... season 6. It's a difficult season at times, but it's still pretty good.

I have to say I tuned out of much of Season 6. Largely because of the depressing tone and the Buffy/Spike shipper thing was pretty sordid and repellent (I couldn't believe it, because it's like she'd learned nothing from what happened with Angel or Parker).

But I do remember catching the finale and being rather hit in the heart by Willow's final break-down into Xander's arms. It was a very well acted scene indeed.

Season 7 was a massive improvement all-round however. I'm glad other fans persuaded me to finally give that a go.

Rewatched season 7 again. Mmm... I have to admit I'm not big on the last two seasons these days, but honestly I preferred 6 this time. For all that's talked about how depressing 6 is, 7 is even more so, at least once the First arc kicks off. It's all so bleak and miserable, and even the warmth that normally comes from these characters is increasingly conspicuous by its absence. After her depression in season 6, we get happy quippy Buffy back... for about 6 episodes, and soon she's depressed and even icier than ever. Xander and Anya are through, I was never into the Buffy/Spike thing, Tara's dead, and the Willow/Kennedy thing is just... who GAF. Kennedy seems to be there solely to appease the gay community who were pissed off by the end of season 6 by giving Willow another girlfriend, but the character's empty and the relationship contrived, rushed and utterly unappealing. It's singularly depressing that after the lovely relationships she had with Oz and Tara, this is who Willow's with at the end of the show. It's really only in a couple of the platonic friendships that we get any warmth, with Willow and Xander being as reliable for that as ever, and I really like the warm interaction we get between Xander and Dawn this season too. (I particularly like how clingy she is with him after he gets back from the hospital after losing an eye, sitting on the arm of his chair and holding his arm even as Buffy's coming up with her next plan to get them all killed). Dawn gets a lot of stick, but her character matures a hell of a lot in season 7, and I suspect it's only the lack of material she gets in the second half that stops people noticing that).
Caleb is a menacing villain but arguably introduced far too late, with the First being too nebulous and the Bringers too faceless to really make an impact. Principal Wood is an okay character and actor, but seems really superfluous to requirements in a season that's so overloaded with new characters already that many of the regulars are being neglected, so I could have lived without him.
Again, it's not bad exactly... but it's not that good either. The first 5 seasons are by far the best, but I actually even like 6 more than this on this occasion...

iank wrote:Rewatched season 7 again. Mmm... I have to admit I'm not big on the last two seasons these days, but honestly I preferred 6 this time. For all that's talked about how depressing 6 is, 7 is even more so, at least once the First arc kicks off. It's all so bleak and miserable, and even the warmth that normally comes from these characters is increasingly conspicuous by its absence. After her depression in season 6, we get happy quippy Buffy back... for about 6 episodes, and soon she's depressed and even icier than ever. Xander and Anya are through, I was never into the Buffy/Spike thing, Tara's dead, and the Willow/Kennedy thing is just... who GAF. Kennedy seems to be there solely to appease the gay community who were pissed off by the end of season 6 by giving Willow another girlfriend, but the character's empty and the relationship contrived, rushed and utterly unappealing. It's singularly depressing that after the lovely relationships she had with Oz and Tara, this is who Willow's with at the end of the show. It's really only in a couple of the platonic friendships that we get any warmth, with Willow and Xander being as reliable for that as ever, and I really like the warm interaction we get between Xander and Dawn this season too. (I particularly like how clingy she is with him after he gets back from the hospital after losing an eye, sitting on the arm of his chair and holding his arm even as Buffy's coming up with her next plan to get them all killed). Dawn gets a lot of stick, but her character matures a hell of a lot in season 7, and I suspect it's only the lack of material she gets in the second half that stops people noticing that).
Caleb is a menacing villain but arguably introduced far too late, with the First being too nebulous and the Bringers too faceless to really make an impact. Principal Wood is an okay character and actor, but seems really superfluous to requirements in a season that's so overloaded with new characters already that many of the regulars are being neglected, so I could have lived without him.
Again, it's not bad exactly... but it's not that good either. The first 5 seasons are by far the best, but I actually even like 6 more than this on this occasion...

Good points.

Kennedy was nowhere near as likable as Tara. Kennedy was a bit of a Wesley Crusher, IE the new obnoxious character who comes in and insults the main characters and is proven to be right and never called out.

In hindsight I don't think Tara should have been killed. As much as I liked Dark Willow, really S6 is where I think they wrote themselves into a bit of a hole RE killing Tara, Spuffy, Giles leaving (not their fault, but maybe it was a sign the show had gone beyond its natural life?)

I was also pissed off with how they treated Giles in the last season. Also Spike became a male Mary Sue in the last season. As much as I love the character, it was so annoying having everybody turn on Buffy, just so we could have that awful moment where Spike tells her she is the most fabulous person in the universe.

I HATED having everyone turn against Buffy for Faith. No way would Willow do that after what had happened. The thing is though Faith actually was reasonable. She just didn't want to drag a bunch of young girls into a vineyard where they'd be slaughtered, but she outright said that she didn't want to be the leader, yet Buffy and Spike took it all out on her?

It just made Buffy look petty. (Okay I get it that Buffy would have reason to be pissed with her, but come on, in that situation, Faith's also hardly the most evil person there. Willow nearly ended the world LOL. Also look at what Anya's done?)

I felt the only area that S7 succeeded was that it was a return to a focus on fantasy after the dreary soap opera of S6.

I LOVE the Uber Vampires. They are such an inspired idea. A second race of Vampires that the regular Vampires fear

Blade however had done that the year before with the Reapers. (Any Blade fans here? I loved Blade.)

Both the Reapers and the Turok Han have their roots in mythology however. The Nelapsi are a second, more feral race of Vampires.

I think overall Blade did the Vampires that Vampires fear idea better, but the first Turok Han was scary.

Here are Buffy's Uber Vamps vs Blade's. Who do you guys think were better?





More shows and films should do the second race of Vampires idea. It should be as popular as Vamps vs Werewolves (which is overplayed IMO.)

Yeah, I do think that Season 7 is my least favourite Season tied with Season 1.
As you mentioned, Buffy is way too cold, and barely has any of that fun loving quality that was even present in Season 6. The moment I started to dislike her, is when that one member of the Potentials committed suicide, and she practically scolds her, and calls her an idiot for killing herself (god imagine her telling that to Jonathan in Earshot). Which, I do think that there were 2 factors: SMG was most likely exhausted from the role, and I do think that the writers were trying to make a point that Buffy may be becoming too much like Kendra, as in more work focused and detached from social life, but that element feels like it should be more prevalent.
Also Season 7 feels like 2 Seasons compressed into 1, with a big threat like The First Evil, he gets introduced too late, and doesn't have as much of an impact until the last third. And I can't help but feel like characters like Xander, Willow, Giles and Dawn were put too much to the sidelines, especially Willow after the emotional highs of Season 6.
It's not all bad though, there's still brilliant episodes. Conversations with Dead People, Selfless, Same Time Same Place and Storyteller are terrific stories, the return of Faith is a welcome one and she's as fun as ever and there's still brilliant performances. But it feels like it could have been stretched out more and have a bit more humour and lighthearted fun.

The First arc also does not really square well with the initial concept of going back to the high school (which itself feels like a retrograde step anyway). The two ideas really seem at cross-purposes.