Ian Levine vs the SJWS

It is often debated that Ian Levine's influence on the original series in the 1980s was  just as toxic as the SJW's are to the remake series. Now it's no secret that 80s Who polarises people but would you agree with this statement?

Discuss.

EDIT: By the way, Ian Levine vs The SJWS would actually be a great name for a TV series. I'd phucking watch it.

Indrid Mercury wrote:It is often debated that Ian Levine's influence on the original series in the 1980s was  just as toxic as the SJW's are to the remake series.

Actually I'm probably the only one here who holds that view.

But yes he gets my vote. He wasn't a writer and should've had no say or interference on the creative process with those who understood that craft. He should not have been promoted to a position to speak for the fanbase and give rise to elements as petty and myopic as him.

Unfortunately he was given that role of unnoficial advisor, to the point where I would describe him as almost being JNT's test screen audience of one. He was given a position to complicate writers' understanding of what they thought the show and its hero were about, to the point where the show just seemed confused and craftless.

And as a result, petty, cultish and myopic is what the show became under him, because it was tailored to fans like him, and made uninviting and impenetrable to the reasonable broad church the show used to attract. I still hold that Warriors of the Deep is as poisonous and trash in its ideology as anything from the woke era, and that's thanks to him.

What baffles me about Levine is that he was a fan of the new series until they cast Whitaker, as if everything was just dandy till that point. He absolutely creamed himself over Listen.

Tanmann wrote: I still hold that Warriors of the Deep is as poisonous and trash in its ideology as anything from the woke era, and that's thanks to him.

I will say this for you, you are consistent.

SJWs get my vote.
Eighties Who was fine until Trial as far as I am concerned.

Rawkuss wrote:What baffles me about Levine is that he was a fan of the new series until they cast Whitaker, as if everything was just dandy till that point. He absolutely creamed himself over Listen.

He did say during series 10 that The Doctor Falls was the first time he had been excited about a new episode of DW for years.

What baffles me is that he was such a fan of RTD. Regardless of whatever you think about Levine it cannot be denied that RTD treated him appallingly.

He based an ugly, fat monster off of him, made him out to be a total wanker in the series itself, basically had another character say he ruined the show and its fandom, (from what I'm told the Slitheen were also based on and named after Levine too.) On top of that he also told him to fuck off at a public event when Levine just asked an ordinary question.

Why the hell would Ian Levine not punch Russell never mind fawn over him after that.

stengos wrote:SJWs get my vote.
Eighties Who was fine until Trial as far as I am concerned.

It was fine again when the production team came to their senses and brought in McCoy and Cartmel to steady the ship.

burrunjor wrote:

Rawkuss wrote:What baffles me about Levine is that he was a fan of the new series until they cast Whitaker, as if everything was just dandy till that point. He absolutely creamed himself over Listen.

He did say during series 10 that The Doctor Falls was the first time he had been excited about a new episode of DW for years.

What baffles me is that he was such a fan of RTD. Regardless of whatever you think about Levine it cannot be denied that RTD treated him appallingly.

He based an ugly, fat monster off of him, made him out to be a total wanker in the series itself, basically had another character say he ruined the show and its fandom, (from what I'm told the Slitheen were also based on and named after Levine too.) On top of that he also told him to fuck off at a public event when Levine just asked an ordinary question.

Why the hell would Ian Levine not punch Russell never mind fawn over him after that.

Levine makes no sense whatsoever. Never mind Listen, he creamed himself over Twice Upon A Time ("Once again my beloved Doctor Who shone one last time on Christmas Day"...blah blah...puke...) seemingly completely oblivious to the show being braindead for years, the total bastardisation of the first Doctor's character and the fact that Moffat had already paved the way quite clearly for the crap we're getting now. Go figure.

Ian Levine obviously feels very VERY STRONGLY about everything he feels VERY VERY STRONGLY about. However, quite what those things are seems largely arbitrary. Its apparently ok for the series to be awful...but the Doctor being a WOMAN???

Having said that, assuming we're voting for what we think is worst, I'm not going for Levine, nor, actually, for the SJWs. For starters, throughout the 80s I believe that Doctor Who remained an intelligent, creative, imaginative and unique programme still worthy of appreciation (in stark contrast to what we've had since 2005) and I think that Tanmann overestimates the influence of Levine.

On the other hand, nutjobs like the SJWs, by themselves, are not the problem. The problem is those who would listen and allow themselves to be influenced. Therefore, my answer has to be "Some other phucker(s)".

We know who they are...

I've never understood why people crap on Ian Levine so much. He worked to recover missing episodes. He may have (Although I am finding conflicting sources as to whether this is true?) written parts of Attack of the Cybermen - but either way it's damn good story: 9/10 at least, maybe even Colin's best, and as far as Cybermen stories go I think only The Invasion tops it. He worked on Downtime - good for a Dr. Who spin-off, better than anything Newpoo did with the Yeti or the Great Intelligence. And Doctor in Distress - a fucking good and monumentally underrated song. I listen to it nearly every day. I also heard he made an entire animated version of Shada and Mission to the Unknown which never got released. Other than speaking highly of the shit that was the RTD era, he seems to me to have been a positive influence on Who.

Some other phucker - because the SJWs aren't ruining Dr.Who because it was already ruined before they got there (the new series was never good to begin with)  - they just set fire to a sinking ship.

Tanmann wrote:Actually I'm probably the only one here who holds that view

Quite a few other places I've seen regard Levine as being similar. Not exactly word for word for your quote, but they make out that as with the SJWS, Levine was a bad influence on the series.

burrunjor wrote: On top of that he also told him to fuck off at a public event when Levine just asked an ordinary question.

Why the hell would Ian Levine not punch Russell never mind fawn over him after that.

Where was this at if I may ask?

It wouldn't surprise me as we all know how far out of his way RTD went to make his own Doctor Who distant from the original series. He shares the mindset of most The Fitzroy Crowd that it was a dead joke of a series that went to shit in the 1980s and folks like Levine killed the series. So he made it completely the opposite. Instead of darker and serious, he went to town on the forced, wacky twee tone, instead of the everybody dies approach, he dished out crappy deus ex machina endings where everybody lives. Overall RTD's Who was basically just an ''overcorrection for the original series ''fault's in the 1980s''.

I really don't get the argument that Ian was that much of a terrible influence to begin with - much of it just smacks of jealousy from fans that they weren't in his position - and yes, 95% of 80s Who is just fine, thank you very much. So it's obviously the toxic SJWankers.

But yes, it is very bizarre that he was so up on New Poo until recently. Fan blinders can do amazing things, though. I'll give him his due though - he used to hate the McCoy era but a year or two back rewatched it and admitted it was great and that his former negativity had been more to do with his issues with JNT than anything on screen. So fair play to him.

iank wrote:I really don't get the argument that Ian was that much of a terrible influence to begin with.

I dunno, every time he's posted here, I've been using CUNT a lot more on a regular basis.

Fendelman wrote:I've never understood why people crap on Ian Levine so much. He worked to recover missing episodes. He may have (Although I am finding conflicting sources as to whether this is true?) written parts of Attack of the Cybermen - but either way it's damn good story: 9/10 at least, maybe even Colin's best, and as far as Cybermen stories go I think only The Invasion tops it. He worked on Downtime - good for a Dr. Who spin-off, better than anything Newpoo did with the Yeti or the Great Intelligence. And Doctor in Distress - a fucking good and monumentally underrated song. I listen to it nearly every day. I also heard he made an entire animated version of Shada and Mission to the Unknown which never got released. Other than speaking highly of the shit that was the RTD era, he seems to me to have been a positive influence on Who.

This.

Levine was only hired because JNT kept fucking up the continuity.

I think a lot of people greatly overestimate his influence upon the programme, including Levine himself.

Although an embarrassing fool, kudos where it's due - he has recovered a lot of its missing past.

NuWho twats prefer to revise and shit all over it instead.

After reading some responses it occurs to me I could've probably done a better job laying out what specifically his behind the scenes influence involved.

JNT's predecessor Graham Williams had regarded Levine as a pest who wouldn't stop calling the office and tried to give him a wide berth. But JNT did the opposite and actually very quickly brought him onboard as an unofficial continuity consultant on scripts. JNT saw him as an encyclopedic knowledge on the show's history, and a conduit for what would appeal to fan tastes.

(though quite why JNT should need him when Terrance Dicks who understood all that AND the writing craft was still available, I’ll never know... though I guess Levine was cheaper to employ)

State of Decay was only the second story produced under JNT's new regime but already it bore signs of his influence. He pointed out that the crashed ship in State of Decay should not be called the Hyperion because there was a ship of that name already back in The Mutants, so it got changed to the Hydrax. He also got the Tharils in Warrior’s Gate subtly renamed to distance them from Thals.

And I believe he was responsible for piecing together the flashback montages of Logopolis, Earthshock, Mawdryn Undead and Resurrection (since he had a huge home collection of old episodes).

Okay, so far, so innocuous. I don’t see any evidence to hand that he gave JNT the idea to bring back the Master, and certainly I believe it was Saward who specifically wanted to do a Cyberman story for Earthshock.

But Saward has said (quite recently in DWM) he felt that by Season 20 Levine was the one suggesting they bring back more elements from the past like Omega and the Black Guardian, as this would appeal to the fanbase JNT was trying to court. Saward even said he felt Levine was calling the shots more than he was that season.

Certainly I feel the show really should’ve been trying to keep as clean a slate as possible and keep moving forward. In the past, an era was able to nod to past elements but still be self-sustained (so that for instance if you showed the Pertwee or Tom Baker eras in isolation, they’d still make sense as their own TV show, whereas with Davison or Colin’s era I don’t think they would as they feel like they have a secondary source we should be looking up). For much of Season 19 it was moving forward and felt a fresh clean slate, but I think in Season 20 the show was moving more backwards, and the continuity was stagnating the show and its characters.

Famously by Warriors of the Deep he was making much more of an extensive fuss about his list of corrections that he felt needed to be made (which he himself admits he did like it was a sacred duty to). I think by that point he was just becoming a nuisance. Given the difficulties of getting the story ready in time, it's perhaps not surprising that his difficultness and demands for trivial changes during the creative process led to such a frustrated and craftless disaster of a story (because again, I don't think Levine appreciated the writing craft, because he wasn't a writer).

I get the sense the script started with a sure idea of itself and the Doctor, and all Levine's influence did was cast sudden doubt on that, and turn the character there into a mess of clueless uncertainty who could only keep insisting on some misremembered truisms that had no bearing on the action. It’s like the writers were suddenly made to feel they didn't understand or couldn't make sense of all this continuity backstory he was bringing up, so how the hell was the casual audience meant to?

Comparatively I'm not terribly fussed about his work on Attack of the Cybermen (and in any case both Levine and Saward’s accounts of how involved he was are mutually at odds), but I do think it suffers from some of the same problems to a lesser extent.

He was certainly involved in the campaign to save the show in the tabloids, with JNT feeding him the lines to say to the papers, but I don't think he was terribly involved in Trial, because the moment he got whiff of Bonnie Langford's casting, he severed all ties with JNT (and as far as I'm concerned, the show was better for his absence- Remembrance of the Daleks for instance has most of the references a Levine fan could want, but the kind of focused craft that the aforementioned stories lacked because of Levine's nagging and insistent corrections).

In general, test screen audiences can have a dramatic and occasionally compromising effect on a film and an artistic vision. The original ending of Fatal Attraction made it a completely different film entirely (Alex commits suicide, Michael Douglas ends up incriminated for her 'murder'). The ending of Deep Blue Sea always felt jarringly wrong and off to me somehow, and it's no surprise to learn that's because the test audience were particularly bloodthirsty and found the original ending too tame, and wanted Saffron Burrows to get her comeuppance.

Having Ian Levine overseeing the scripts for five years and being almost a singular test screen audience, I think changes and reshapes an ongoing show dramatically and irreversibly. But I think it was worse because he was such a fundamentally wrong choice of test screen audience to boot. He was a fan who couldn't give voice to (nor seemingly cared) what would actually work for the casual audience (and in many ways pushed the show at further distance from them), and also not every fan necessarily wanted the show to be what he did.

So I think for those reasons, his presence behind the scenes was deeply bad for the show, and took it to the point of no return in terms of death by niche.

Rawkuss wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/ianlevine/status/511051102239088640

I actually don't think the episode Listen was terrible, but it certainly wasn't as great as Levine made out. At best I thought it was like an extended Tardisode skit.