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The success of New Who: Debunking a myth

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Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

I think BeKind might just do it, now that you’ve suggested it! Smile

Yeah- Moffat’s interpretation of both characters is a load of shit. The Doctor’s mission wasn’t to ‘end all evil in the universe’ like fucking Batman, he was simply an explorer who wanted to venture into the unknown after being dissatisfied with his own home. As Tanmann says, his incentive was simply to do the best he could, not to ‘roar’ and end all evil in the universe like a generic superhero archetype. I assume he refers to the end of The War Games in that context ‘We have accepted your plee that there is evil in the universe that must be fought’- that doesn’t equate to erupting ‘from the cloisters’, as that wasn’t Hartnell’s original motivation! That part of the Doctor’s characterisation only came later. Fuck, he attempts to cave someone’s head in in An Unearthly Child, so would that constitute as ‘evil’, given the outright pacifist New Who has turned him into? Still, this is coming from the man who depicted the First Doctor as an overt misogynist in Twice Upon a Time, and described 60s Who as almost entirely ‘shit’, so I don’t think his interpretation can be taken seriously at all regardless.

Was this when Moffat was discussing Davison’s Doctor, might I ask? I know he’s his favourite from the original series.

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Bernard Marx wrote:I’ve heard about Saward trying to sideline Colin’s Doctor in the stories due to his personal dislike of Colin, though those choices don’t undermine the stories too badly to really impact their overall quality for me (though particular stories do have their issues elsewhere).

Well I tend to unfortunately feel that Saward just didn't really 'get' the Doctor as a character, had little interest in him, and I think that's why under him Colin's Doctor was marginalized in favour of other mercenary characters, and frankly I think it was just the same with Davison's Doctor who was also sometimes marginalized, and sometimes came off as downright unfit for purpose.

I’ve heard a little about Cornell’s texts- does he deliberately criticise all of Classic Who for his own ends?

I don't know what his overall agenda was in writing The Discontinuity Guide, other than to come off as a cheeky schoolboy pointing out all the goofs and double entendres.

I just know that reading it at 14, when I was really wanting to track down more of the classic series (this was after the TV Movie, where someone at BBC Enterprises had the bright idea to delete most of the old Who videos from stock), that book managed to leave me wondering if I should even bother if this book was telling me how rubbish and shoddy they all were.

And what do you think of Human Nature, might I ask?

I never read the book version. The New Adventures were something I was never able to get into. I was very much the generation of kids who were 'left behind' by them.

The TV story I remember thinking was very impressive. But if I looked back at it now, I think it would just seem derivative of War of the Worlds and leave me wishing they'd used those resources to film that instead. Certainly I think now it has the most naive magic resolution, and a lot of guff about the Doctor being 'like ice and fire' that I could do without.

Sycophancy does seem to revolve around New Who, doesn’t it? It’s a rather cynical state of affairs that no one could be arsed to criticise anything.

They're too in love with the idea of RTD being some miracle worker somehow who fulfilled fandom's impossible dreams of newfound popularity for the show.

There seems no escaping the cultish idea that to criticize how New Who's done is to mark yourself out as an upstart who would've probably done RTD's job all wrong if given the chance.

I know of how calamitious Trial was behind the scenes, given Saward’s behaviour following Holmes’ unexpected death, and his script editing of Mindwarp which made the whole story incoherent in terms of the Doctor’s motivations. I’ll admit to enjoying bits of Mindwarp personally (I don’t mind the score, or how Peri’s death is helmed), but objectively, it’s a fucking dreadful story with a script that barely resembles anything coherent or well thought out.

Even Colin couldn't get a single straight answer from whoever he asked about what his motivation was meant to be in that story. Everyone just seemed to be passing the buck to whoever else, and there seemed no real proper communication or compromise going on.

The Twin Dilemma is one I dislike strongly as well, mainly because Colin’s behaviour is sidelined after he strangles Peri in place of a shit story involving a giant slug, diminishing what could have been an interesting post-regeneration story into a pile of uninspired rubbish. Like most fans, I’m also not keen on the Doctor’s characterisation in it for the same reason as the underlying mechanisms behind his trauma aren’t well explored at all.

I must admit, the first time I tried to watch it on video, I couldn't get past that first cliffhanger, or the horrible bickering there'd been between Peri and Colin just before Hugo awoke and immediately decided his rescuers who didn't even bother disarming him, must be his attackers who deserve to die.... even though all the Doctor needs to do to get out of this threat is give him a good kick.

Though I won’t call it the worst story of all time, it’s pretty fucking awful.

Considering it came out the same year as Warriors of the Deep, I'm not sure it's even the worst story of its season.

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Bernard Marx wrote:Was this when Moffat was discussing Davison’s Doctor, might I ask? I know he’s his favourite from the original series.

It was indeed.

Which I think is the problem. Davison's Doctor was already something of a shoddy leaking vessel of a character, prone to being a sentimental emotional cripple, and yet the New Who team decided to make him the template for the Doctors since, only with pixie dust solutions to ensure he actually gets the idealist happy conclusions he always wanted.

Anyhow the quote wasn't from that famous TSV interview, it was an article Moffat had written for some fanzine about why Davison was his favourite Doctor and the other six were rubbish.

Steven Moffat wrote:THE ONE (OUT OF SEVEN)

Steven Moffat, author of the BAFTA and Montreux Award-winning series PRESS GANG and JOKING APART, recalls how Peter Davison brought a new quality to the role of the Doctor — and almost saved a twenty-something fan from embarrassment in the process...

Back when I was in my early twenties, I thought Doctor Who was the scariest programme on television. I had one particular Who-inspired nightmare which haunts me to this day — except it wasn't a nightmare at all, it was something that happened to me on a regular basis. I'd be sitting watching Doctor Who on a Saturday, absolutely as normal... but I'd be in the company of my friends!!

Being a fan is an odd thing, isn't it? I was in little doubt — though I never admitted it, even to myself — that Doctor Who was nowhere near as good as it should have been, but for whatever reason I'd made that mysterious and deadly emotional connection with the show that transforms you into a fan and like a psychotically devoted supporter of a floundering football club, I turned out every Saturday in my scarf, grimly hoping the production team would finally score.

Of course my friends all knew my devotion to the Doctor had unaccountably survived puberty and had long since ceased to deride me for it. I think (I hope) they generally considered me someone of reasonable taste and intelligence and decided to indulge me in this one, stunningly eccentric lapse. And sometimes, on those distant Saturday afternoons before domestic video my nightmare would begin. I'd be stuck out somewhere with those friends and I'd realise in a moment of sweaty panic that I wasn't going to make it home in time for the programme—or worse, they' d be round at my house not taking the hint to leave — so on my infantile insistence we'd all troop to the nearest television and settle down to watch, me clammy with embarrassment at what was to come, my friends tolerant, amused and even open-minded.

And the music would start. And I'd grip the arms of my chair. And I'd pray! Just this once, I begged, make it good. Not great, not fantastic —just good. Don't, I was really saying, show me up.

And sometimes it would start really quite well. There might even be a passable effects shot (there were more of those than you might imagine) and possibly a decent establishing scene where this week's expendable guest actors popped outside to investigate that mysterious clanking/groaning/beeping/slurping sound before being found horribly killed/gibbering mad an episode later.

At this point I might actually relax a little. I might even start breathing and let my hair unclench. And then it would be happen. The star of the show would come rocketing through the door, hit a shuddering halt slap in the middle of the set and stare at the camera like (and let's be honest here) a complete moron.

I'd hear my friends shifting in their chairs. I could hear sniggers tactfully suppressed. Once one of them remarked (with touching gentleness, mindful of my feelings) that this really wasn't terribly good acting.

Of course, as even they would concede, Tom Baker (for it was he) had been good once — even terrific — but he had long since disappeared up his own art in a seven-year-long act of self-destruction that took him from being a dangerous young actor with a future to a sad, mad old ham safely locked away in a voice-over booth.

Which brings us, of course, to Peter Davison (for it was about to be him). I was appalled when he was cast. I announced to my bored and blank-faced friends that Davison was far too young, far too pretty, and far, far too wet to play television's most popular character (as, I deeply regret to say, I described the Doctor). Little did I realise, back in 1982, that after years of anxious waiting on the terraces in my front room, my home team were about to score — or that Davison was about to do something almost never before seen in the role of the Doctor. He was going to act.

Let's get something straight, because if you don't know now it's time you did. Davison was the best of the lot. Number One! It's not a big coincidence or some kind of evil plot, that he's played more above-the-title lead roles on the telly than the rest of the Doctors put together. It's because-get this!-he's the best actor.

You don't believe me? Okay, let's check out the opposition, Doctor-wise (relax, I'll be gentle).

1. William Hartnell. Look, he didn't know his lines! (okay, fairly gentle. It wasn't his fault) and it's sort of a minimum requirement of the lead actor dial he knows marginally more about what's going to happen next than the audience. In truth, being replaceable was his greatest gift to the series. Had the first Doctor delivered a wonderful performance they almost certainly would not have considered a recast and the show would have died back in the sixties.

2. Patrick Troughton. Marvellous! Troughton, far more than the dispensable, misremembered Hartnell, was the template for the Doctors to come and indeed his performance is the most often cited as precedent for his successors. Trouble is, the show in those days was strictly for indulgent ten-year-olds (and therefore hard to judge as an adult). Damn good, though, and Davison's sole competitor.

3. Jon Pertwee. The idea of a sort of Jason King with a sillier frock isn't that seductive, really, is it? In fairness he carried a certain pompous gravitas and was charismatic enough to dominate the proceedings as the Doctor should. Had his notion of the character been less straightforwardly heroic he might have pulled off something a little more interesting. His Worzel Gummidge, after all,is inspired and wonderful.

4. Tom Baker. Thunderingly effective at the start, even if his interpretation did seem to alter entirely to fit this week's script. (Compare, say, THE SEEDS OF DOOM and THE CITY OF DEATH. Is this supposed to be the same person?) I think I've said quite enough already about his sad decline so let's just say that it's nice to see him back on top form in Medics. Well, is was while it lasted.

5. Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy. Miscast and floundering. Neither made much impression on the role and none at all on the audience. Or at least on me.

So what makes Davison — for me — the best, and his episodes the ones I wouldn't mind watching in the company of my most cynical and sarcastic friends? I'm certainly not claiming the show was suddenly high art or great drama — it was after all, the adventures of space man in a frock coat who lives in a flying telephone box — but for a brief three years it seemed to take the job of being an entertaining, adventure-romp for kids of all
ages with just the right mix of seriousness and vivacity, the way Lois And Clark does so adroitly now and the leading man, bless him. was really delivering.

It's become traditional to say that the Doctor is not an acting part — I think Tom Baker started it and he certainly seemed increasingly determined to prove it true. This is, of course, nonsense. Like any other heroic character in melodrama, James Bond, Sherlock Holmes,Tarzan — he has his motivations and fallibilities. In fact, the Doctor's are rather well defined — perhaps unusually so, for a "Hero'.

We know him to be a sort of academic aristocrat who one day, on a simple moral imperative, erupts from the cloisters and roars through time and space on a mission to end all evil in the universe, unarmed and,if possible, politely.

Consider for a moment — as you would have to if you were casting this part — what kind of man makes a decision like that? He's profoundly emotional (it's a profoundly emotional decision), he's idealistic (unarmed?? Not even a truncheon??), he feels the suffering of others with almost unbearable acuteness (or he'd have stayed at home like we all do when there s a famine or a massacre on the news), he's almost insanely impulsive (I don't think I need explain that one) and he is, above all, an innocent — because only an innocent would try to take on the entire cosmos and hope to persuade it to behave a little better. Now look at the seven Doctors. Which one best fits the picture? Which one could you see acting this way? Be honest — it's number five.

It wouldn't surprise me, given the meticulous actor Davison is known to be, that some of the above was actually thought through and consciously foregrounded in his interpretation. Certainly, he seemed to reject the theatrical eccentricity of his predecessors (leading to the ridiculous criticisms that he's 'bland' and 'wet') in favour of a more visceral, emotional performance, emphasising the Doctor's anxieties and escalating panic in the face of disaster.

Davison's Doctor is beautifully unaware that he is a hero — he simply responds as he feels he must when confronted with evil and injustice, and does so with a very 'human' sense of fluster and outrage. In one of the comparatively few perfect decisions in Doctor Who, Davison is allowed to finally expire saving, not the entire universe, but just one life. This isn't to show, as has been suggested, that he's any less capable or powerful than the other Doctors —just that, for him, saving one life is as great an imperative as saving a galaxy. This, then, is the Doctor as I believe he ought to be — someone who would brave a supernova to rescue a kitten from a tree.

But that's not the whole picture, is it? A terrific central performance — but what about the stories? Astonishingly, they were pretty damn good too. Only Twice in the whole run did the show lapse into the embarrassing (TIME-FLIGHT and WARRIORS OF THE DEEP) which, given my team's previous propensity for own goals, showed amazing restraint and there were whole runs of straight-forward but corkingly well realised yarns (THE VISITATION, FRONTIOS, MAWDRYN UNDEAD, RESURRECTION OF THE DALEKS, ENLIGHTENMENT, THE AWAKENING, THE FIVE DOCTORS and quite a few others). And there were some real stand-outs, weren't there? EARTHSHOCK, for instance, while having a story crafted almost entirely out of gaping plot holes had some cracking set pieces, thumping good direction, and some real 'moments' (Davison's first sighting of the Cybermen being my favourite). THE CAVES OF ANDROZANI, while again needing some tightening up on the plot front (I mean just where was the Doc during episode 3) was also superbly directed, had a terrific guest villain (Christopher Gable) and Davison's all time best Doctor performance as his heart-breaking doomed innocent gives his all to save a woman he's only just met.

Best of all, of course, there was KINDA and there was SNAKEDANCE and if you don't know those are the two best Who stories ever you probably stopped reading after I slagged off Tom Baker anyway.

I find it genuinely surprising that Who fans don't routinely consider the Davison era to be their finest hour. It's only serious competition in terms of consistency and quality are the early Tom Baker stories and those, being largely a set of one-note Hammer hand-me-downs, lack the same variety and ambition.

Is it because Davison doesn't fit the established, middle-aged image of the Time Lord — even though, with twelve regenerations the Doctor must be a rather young Gallifreyan with, we know, a definitively youthful, rebellious outlook? Is it that some fans had actually latched on to tackier, more juvenile style of the earlier seasons and actually missed that approach? Whatever the explanation, if it's possible for anyone to watch something like KINDA and not realise the show was suddenly in a whole different class then I find that slightly worrying. Perhaps — no definitely — there's something about being a fan that skews your critical judgements.

Still, never mind all that. Back when the Eighties were young, and I was still one of those fans, all I cared about was that my show was suddenly kicking sci-fi bottom and I was proud and renewed in my faith. And once, on a visit to London, I persuaded my smart and cynical (and now slightly older) friends that Doctor Who really was a new and better show — respectable, intelligent, well made. And I persuaded them, for the first time in a long time, to watch an episode with me. I wasn't forced to, this time — I had a VCR recording at home, I could always see it later — but I wanted to surprise them with just how much better my team was playing.

So after much persuasion from me, we all sat down together and watched the panto horse episode of WARRIORS OF THE DEEP.

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

Fuck me, he comes across as the most pseudo-intellectual arsehole in that article. Did he even watch Hartnell’s era properly? Could he be arsed to have a look at Hartnell’s performance in The Dalek Invasion Of Earth, The Time Meddler, The Daleks’ Master Plan and The Massacre? And how was Troughton’s era made only for ‘indulgent 10 year olds’? It featured pieces of 1920s music scored by Bartók, which is more than can be said for Moffat’s own era. I’m also not entirely subscribed to the idea that Tom Baker declined in the role (unlike most Williams era bashers)- he’s superb in City Of Death. Besides, there’s a four year gap between The Seeds Of Doom and City Of Death- plenty of time for his character to change, unlike Capaldi, who randomly shifted in character from series 8 to series 9, the twat. Colin and Sylvester aren’t particularly popular anyway, so it doesn’t surprise me that he doesn’t like them (thought I really enjoy both at the best of times). And the fact that he bases the quality of the programme on whether his dull-sounding friends enjoy it doesn’t exactly bode well either. And what point is he making with that Warriors of the Deep reference at the end? That he was wrong about Davison’s era being good? It sounds like a shit anaphoric reference to me. This article is about as nonsensical as his own era.

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Bernard Marx wrote:Fuck me, he comes across as the most pseudo-intellectual arsehole in that article. Did he even watch Hartnell’s era properly? Could he be arsed to have a look at Hartnell’s performance in The Dalek Invasion Of Earth, The Time Meddler, The Daleks’ Master Plan and The Massacre?


That's the problem with his critique. He comes across as far too easily bored by the show to actually be patient enough to notice the rewarding merits of an unfolding story and of Hartnell's performance.

And how was Troughton’s era made only for ‘indulgent 10 year olds’? It featured pieces of 1920s music scored by Bartók, which is more than can be said for Moffat’s own era.

It sounds almost like he based his entire impression of the era on watching The Dominators once.

I’m also not entirely subscribed to the idea that Tom Baker declined in the role (unlike most Williams era bashers)- he’s superb in City Of Death. Besides, there’s a four year gap between The Seeds Of Doom and City Of Death- plenty of time for his character to change, unlike Capaldi, who randomly shifted in character from series 8 to series 9, the twat.

I don't even see the Doctor of Seeds of Doom and City of Death as that different. I just see the same Doctor who knows when a gentler hand is needed to get to the bottom of a mystery, and when the only way to stop the villains is to throw down.

And the fact that he bases the quality of the programme on whether his dull-sounding friends enjoy it doesn’t exactly bode well either.

Indeed.

I have never understood caring that neurotically what friends might think about your tastes if something generates the right excitement and escapism with you.

It sounds almost like he could never really invest in it if his thought was always more on his self-interested reputation and status than giving over to any emotional investment in the fate of its characters.

And what point is he making with that Warriors of the Deep reference at the end? That he was wrong about Davison’s era being good? It sounds like a shit anaphoric reference to me. This article is about as nonsensical as his own era.

I guess he's trying to say that after all that, there were times where he just still couldn't stand a chance of impressing his friends because fate was against him, he'd missed that boat, and that there were still going to be some stories even an actor like Davison couldn't save.

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

Him referring to Tom Baker as a ‘complete moron’ doesn’t make him look any better either. Small wonder Moffat never greeted him properly on the set of Day of the Doctor (given that only Smith allegedly greeted Tom with genuine enthusiasm on the set, as confirmed by Tom himself).

Doctor7

avatar

How dare he say Sylvester McCoy was miscast he was brilliant in the role still is.Colin was good at times too.

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

I agree. McCoy is great in season 25 and 26, and Colin is also very good in season 22 after his character becomes more defined (I’m not particularly keen on season 23 Colin, though). Though I’d hardly consider Moffat an individual of good taste. Smile

iank

iank

They watered Colin down too much in 23.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

ClockworkOcean

avatar
Dick Tater

Tanmann wrote:Plus the attempts to make the Dalek out to be deserving of the Doctor's forgiveness felt almost cultish and left almost as nasty an aftertaste with me as any of Saward's worst moments.

I can't help think it would've worked better as a two-parter and essentially the second part was about the Dalek reaching Salt Lake City and beginning its massacre of the people, with Rose looking on and realizing this wasn't some victimized prisoner just wanting their freedom and revenge, and that the Doctor was right all along.

If Genesis were made in the 21st century, the "Do I have the right?" dilemma would be followed by Davros admitting that he was wrong, modifying the Daleks to become a force for peace, and Sarah tearfully apologising for encouraging the Doctor to wipe them out, ending on a smugly self-righteous lecture about the power of love and compassion.

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

Yep. 21st century Who has typically leaned purely towards passive audience spectatorship and does not allow for subtlety or nuance in the slightest compared to Classic. My question is this: Was it ever possible to make intelligent and mature Doctor Who in this day and age?

iank

iank

Probably not, sadly.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Bernard Marx wrote:Yep. 21st century Who has typically leaned purely towards passive audience spectatorship and does not allow for subtlety or nuance in the slightest compared to Classic. My question is this: Was it ever possible to make intelligent and mature Doctor Who in this day and age?

I used to think it was possible, if given to the right head-writer. Certainly there were Big Finish audios that, if anything, seemed to go even further than the classic series in challenging content. So there were Who writers out there who were prepared to write something exceptional.

And I just thought it was a sad shame that the revival was stuck with someone like RTD, determined to keep it all as safe, soapish and dumbed down as possible, thinking the audience couldn't handle anything more challenging.

Then when we got into Moffat's run, it slowly became apparent that it didn't make many odds whether the show had a writer like RTD or Moffat. Either way they were going to be at the behest of what the marketing groups say appeals to each demographic, and that was always going to trump any dedication to doing the sci-fi proper justice.

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

ClockworkOcean wrote:
Tanmann wrote:Plus the attempts to make the Dalek out to be deserving of the Doctor's forgiveness felt almost cultish and left almost as nasty an aftertaste with me as any of Saward's worst moments.

I can't help think it would've worked better as a two-parter and essentially the second part was about the Dalek reaching Salt Lake City and beginning its massacre of the people, with Rose looking on and realizing this wasn't some victimized prisoner just wanting their freedom and revenge, and that the Doctor was right all along.

If Genesis were made in the 21st century, the "Do I have the right?" dilemma would be followed by Davros admitting that he was wrong, modifying the Daleks to become a force for peace, and Sarah tearfully apologising for encouraging the Doctor to wipe them out, ending on a smugly self-righteous lecture about the power of love and compassion.

Sometimes in the Sarah Jane Adventures, it felt as though Genesis might as well have ended that way.

Quite often in that series, Sarah would talk about how the Doctor taught her the more peaceful, hippieish way of repelling alien invaders than the military way.

And looking back on her era, I don't know how she ever got that impression. With the exception of Genesis of the Daleks, the Doctor of her time was pretty ruthless in how he dealt with hostile threats (Monster of Peladon, Robot, Terror of the Zygons, Pyramids of Mars).

To my mind the only message of seeking any reason for the possibility of a peaceful resolve with the aliens she could've picked up on was from the brainwashed Crayford in The Android Invasion, and the Doctor declared him a lost cause.

But somewhere along the line (I would say during the Davison era), the Doctor *became* Crayford in the minds of the writers and fans, and basically that's what Tennant became writ large, always straining for second chances and reason with the unreasonable, and of course Sarah had to remember a Tennant-esque Doctor telling her all these absurd anti-violence means could work by magic.

Because really Sarah learned these "Bush=bad" lessons from the unbearably out of touch, bourgeois liberal BBC. Not the actual Fourth Doctor of the 1970's.

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

Interesting that you mention the Sarah Jane Adventures there. I haven’t seen it since it initially came out, but I recall each episode (especially during the later seasons) featuring some soapish and mawkish voiceover/monologue at the end from Sarah which usually had whimsical and twee connotations of a similar kind. Is that true, or is my memory deceiving me?

And when do you think the BBC first properly embraced that bourgeoise attitude, might I ask?

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

There was a lot of tweeness to the SJA's yes.

I don't know when it happened that the BBC became so bourgeois, but I do know that by the late 1980s it had become very much about political correctness (which perhaps was reflected by the McCoy era). Even reading about Rob Grant and Doug Naylor making Red Dwarf around that time, it seemed they were very conscious about keeping their humour and characterization politically correct.

Infact I believe they even scrapped the planned opener to series 3, which was going to deal with Lister's pregnancy after the previous season's cliffhanger, because they worried the episode might be seen as sexist. So they devoted an opening crawl to explaining it instead.

I mean I sometimes think that there was an overriding bourgeois left-leaning attitude to the BBC even earlier, and probably during the Saward era too, and that what we saw onscreen often was Saward trying to put those bourgeois anti-violence principles into practice in the show and realizing they didn't work. But that's just my theory.

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

Bernard Marx wrote:Interesting that you mention the Sarah Jane Adventures there. I haven’t seen it since it initially came out, but I recall each episode (especially during the later seasons) featuring some soapish and mawkish voiceover/monologue at the end from Sarah which usually had whimsical and twee connotations of a similar kind. Is that true, or is my memory deceiving me?

And when do you think the BBC first properly embraced that bourgeoise attitude, might I ask?

Only in a few episodes, even then they relegated the speeches until the final episode of a Series. Even then, the speeches were much less soapish than a lot of the NewWho speeches. On yours and Tanmann's comment, to be fair, Sarah Jane Adventures is more catered towards kids, so I can definitely excuse any form of black and white elements as opposed to Classic Who stories. Plus, there were a fair amount of stories that had somewhat morally grey characters in episodes, like in Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane Smith or Secret of the Stars.

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

ClockworkOcean wrote:
Tanmann wrote:Plus the attempts to make the Dalek out to be deserving of the Doctor's forgiveness felt almost cultish and left almost as nasty an aftertaste with me as any of Saward's worst moments.

I can't help think it would've worked better as a two-parter and essentially the second part was about the Dalek reaching Salt Lake City and beginning its massacre of the people, with Rose looking on and realizing this wasn't some victimized prisoner just wanting their freedom and revenge, and that the Doctor was right all along.

If Genesis were made in the 21st century, the "Do I have the right?" dilemma would be followed by Davros admitting that he was wrong, modifying the Daleks to become a force for peace, and Sarah tearfully apologising for encouraging the Doctor to wipe them out, ending on a smugly self-righteous lecture about the power of love and compassion.
I feel like this comment is talking about a franchise that I may not be familiar with. What series are you referring to that has this sort of mindset?

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

You’re probably more astute on SJA than I am, given that I haven’t seen it since initial broadcast as I said, and there were certainly some pretty good episodes which were more morally ambiguous than the norm (the ones you mention certainty stand out, with the former being particularly good). Though I don’t know if I’d apply the argument that Kids’ TV is warranted to feature purely black and white elements purely for appealing to said demographic- some of the greatest scripts are written with Kids in mind and can become timeless due to broadening their horizons, and surely it is inherently better that such an audience is not patronised? Regardless, I probably shouldn’t have spoken for the entirety of SJA as I haven’t seen it for years, so I’ll apologise and admit to being wrong there.

To be fair, given how The Witch’s Familiar ended, where Davros ended up installing the notion of mercy within the Daleks, effectively rendering a key moment in Genesis thematically redundant in favour of coerced mawkishness (“Let them live! Have Pity!”...”Pity. I have no understanding of the word.”), and given Dalek’s distinctively maudlin ending which seems to only exist to coerce an emotional reaction from its audience (the idea of merging human DNA with Dalek DNA was more maturely explored in The Evil Of The Daleks, where they underwent a gradual progression in maturity under their new guise, rather than simply feeling an inclination to feel the sun), it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if New Who went down such a path. Although I will not be Black and White myself and declare all of New Who to be as such- New Who can be great at the best of times. Stories like Blink, Midnight, The Time Of Angels and Heaven Sent do not feature the elements we criticise (Midnight disposing of said mawkishness at the end in favour of a more bleak ending, and Heaven Sent being very reflective and poignant in itself), and as I have previously referred to, I am very keen on series 5 of New Who in spite of featuring a fantastical and whimsy story arc at its centre (which Moffat admittedly repeated constantly throughout his era past this point). It’s all to do with the execution.

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Into the Dalek is another one where the Doctor is taught how 'wrong' he is by Clara for having an unfeeling prejudice against Daleks and it ends with a Dalek redeemed.

UncleDeadly

UncleDeadly

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:
ClockworkOcean wrote:
Tanmann wrote:Plus the attempts to make the Dalek out to be deserving of the Doctor's forgiveness felt almost cultish and left almost as nasty an aftertaste with me as any of Saward's worst moments.

I can't help think it would've worked better as a two-parter and essentially the second part was about the Dalek reaching Salt Lake City and beginning its massacre of the people, with Rose looking on and realizing this wasn't some victimized prisoner just wanting their freedom and revenge, and that the Doctor was right all along.

If Genesis were made in the 21st century, the "Do I have the right?" dilemma would be followed by Davros admitting that he was wrong, modifying the Daleks to become a force for peace, and Sarah tearfully apologising for encouraging the Doctor to wipe them out, ending on a smugly self-righteous lecture about the power of love and compassion.
I feel like this comment is talking about a franchise that I may not be familiar with. What series are you referring to that has this sort of mindset?

You're joking, right?

UncleDeadly

UncleDeadly

Bernard Marx wrote:Yep. 21st century Who has typically leaned purely towards passive audience spectatorship and does not allow for subtlety or nuance in the slightest compared to Classic. My question is this: Was it ever possible to make intelligent and mature Doctor Who in this day and age?

iank wrote:Probably not, sadly.

I don't see why not. The fact is no-one's even TRIED.

Tanmann wrote:I used to think it was possible, if given to the right head-writer. Certainly there were Big Finish audios that, if anything, seemed to go even further than the classic series in challenging content. So there were Who writers out there who were prepared to write something exceptional.

Exactly. The BBC just don't seem to want to know. I did write a post earlier that I didn't get around to finishing, espousing that the BBC made a mistake in allowing Russell T. Davies to dominate the series to such a degree, effectively giving him carte blanche to completely re-shape it in his own image, adding and subtracting whatever he saw fit in pursuit of popularity rather than integrity.

However, the buck unavoidably stops with the organisation itself. As such, perhaps it was always going to be this way; the BBC just seem to have pre-emptively decided that a straighter, more intelligent take (read; just doing it as per the original with updated effects) must somehow be doomed to failure, without even attempting it.

Then again, a friend of mine, with the wonderfully untarnished wisdom that can only come of being a non-fan, expressed the "shocking" opinion that the BBC is really not interested in Doctor Who itself at all but just as a brand name to exploit. Surely not?

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

UncleDeadly wrote:
SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:
ClockworkOcean wrote:
Tanmann wrote:Plus the attempts to make the Dalek out to be deserving of the Doctor's forgiveness felt almost cultish and left almost as nasty an aftertaste with me as any of Saward's worst moments.

I can't help think it would've worked better as a two-parter and essentially the second part was about the Dalek reaching Salt Lake City and beginning its massacre of the people, with Rose looking on and realizing this wasn't some victimized prisoner just wanting their freedom and revenge, and that the Doctor was right all along.

If Genesis were made in the 21st century, the "Do I have the right?" dilemma would be followed by Davros admitting that he was wrong, modifying the Daleks to become a force for peace, and Sarah tearfully apologising for encouraging the Doctor to wipe them out, ending on a smugly self-righteous lecture about the power of love and compassion.
I feel like this comment is talking about a franchise that I may not be familiar with. What series are you referring to that has this sort of mindset?

You're joking, right?
My wording came out a bit wrong in that message, my bad. What I meant was that it sounded like ClockworkOcean was talking about a different franchise that had done this form of ultra positivity, not just NewWho.

UncleDeadly

UncleDeadly

Ah, gotcha. As you were...

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

Ah. My apologies for misunderstanding what you meant, and sorry if I came across as patronising in my response.

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