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The success of New Who: Debunking a myth

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stengos
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176The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 20th August 2019, 2:30 pm

stengos

stengos

Bernard Marx wrote:
stengos wrote:If i can just add a point here.

I would have no interest in Fielding's views on either Warriors Gate or Keeper of Traken - she wasn't in either. With Sutton I would only really be interested in what she has to say about Traken. For Warrior's Gate Id like to know what the people who worked on it think as they may bring some interesting insights into what they say. Just because sbdy is a celebrity does not mean they have sthg interesting to say.
Absolutely true. Sutton didn’t actually say much about Traken beyond enjoying it, but you’re correct. I just figured I’d bring it up as an example of their casual dismissal of particular Classic stories. A production assistant involved on the season was also there, and seemed to appreciate it very much alongside Tom and Leeson, however.

I know that Steve Galligher’s script went through several re-writes due to initially being un-filmable on Who’s budget, and he seemed a little frustrated about the story’s final product as a result, but that’s all I know about it (excluding the fact that he took influence from Cocteau’s films). I think Tanmann would likely know more about it than me, given that he seems to generally know more about the series than I do.

I know there were some issues with the Director (Paul Joyce) against whom various members of the production team expressed dissatisfaction. I think graham harper, who was initially a production assistant on the story, had to take over some of the directorial duties when Joyce was suspended. I can't remember the detail sorry. Tannman is a walking encyclopedia on "Who" so he may be able to say more.

177The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 20th August 2019, 4:03 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Bernard Marx wrote:I know that Steve Galligher’s script went through several re-writes due to initially being un-filmable on Who’s budget, and he seemed a little frustrated about the story’s final product as a result, but that’s all I know about it (excluding the fact that he took influence from Cocteau’s films). I think Tanmann would likely know more about it than me, given that he seems to generally know more about the series than I do.

Sorry I have to draw a blank there. I don't know much about the background of writing or script-editing Warrior's Gate.

I did see Gallagher give a talk at one of the pub conventions in Manchester, and basically when asked he says he sees both Warriors Gate and Terminus as his children, and doesn't like to pick a favourite.

However I do believe Gallagher's (written under a pseudonym) novelization is meant to be markedly different to the TV story, and might indeed be closer to Gallagher's original script.

178The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 20th August 2019, 5:23 pm

stengos

stengos

Re the production problems on Warriors Gate ...

"Joyce was keen to push the limits of the series by directing the serial like a film as he considered some of the earlier productions to be quite bland and workmanlike. This approach however caused problems early on with significant delays in order to achieve various shots such as the pan through the spaceship in the opening sequence. This included shooting the camera upwards where the gallery lights could be seen - known as "shooting off set", something which is forbidden by the BBC. Problems such as this increased as time began to run short and he and producer Nathan-Turner clashed frequently and even executive producer Letts had to step in to advise Joyce. With letters being written to higher executives complaining of Joyce's style of work (also seen as inexperience), Joyce was asked to leave part way through production. His duties were taken up by assistant Graeme Harper, who directed a number of scenes before finally Joyce was re-instated. Setting up of certain shots that Joyce had envisaged proved to take up too much time and shooting over-ran on a number of days. In the end, the serial was completed and was indeed a departure in terms of style over the norm and was complimented by Bidmead, but Joyce was never to work on Doctor Who again."

This is taken from a Wikipedia article. If I am not allowed to quote from a source in this way then would a mod please let me know and I will delete this post or at least edit out the quote.

The link for the article is ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warriors%27_Gate

In case you don't trust Wikipedia I do have other sources for this - an old Dr Who Monthly article for instance. And i thought it got discussed on the extras for The Warriors Gate DVD but i may be imagining that.

On the script side i know Gallagher's  original submissions were over long and Bidmead had to work with Gallagher to trim it.

Subsequent to those changes I know Letts and JNT expressed concern that the story was a bit confusing, but i don't know if Bidmead then had time to amend it further as he was running out of time.

Its these sort of things that DVD extras could usefully expand upon. Not whether actors liked or disliked their hairdo / dresses / blouses / skirts in completely different stories. Whether or not Letts / Bidmead / the Director understood the story is interesting to know. What an actress who wasn't even in it thought is not. Imho. Its almost feels like they just want to interview people to slag the old serie off but without adding any insight into the production itself.

179The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 20th August 2019, 6:09 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

stengos wrote:This is taken from a Wikipedia article. If I am not allowed to quote from a source in this way then would a mod please let me know and I will delete this post or at least edit out the quote.

I honestly think it will be fine.

Its these sort of things that DVD extras could usefully expand upon. Not whether actors liked or disliked their hairdo / dresses / blouses / skirts in completely different stories. Whether or not Letts / Bidmead / the Director understood the story is interesting to know. What an actress who wasn't even in it thought is not. Imho. Its almost feels like they just want to interview people to slag the old serie off but without adding any insight into the production itself.

I think it might just be that the general public are encouraged to see actors on the show as being layman's like themselves, and maybe writers being seen as being more remote. So more focus seems to go on them. And maybe Fielding gets the most focus because she's the most opinionated.

180The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 23rd December 2019, 2:25 pm

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

Thought I’d bump this thread up again, as something else has occurred to me.

The likes of Verity Lambert, Barry Letts, Philip Hinchcliffe etc never went out of their way to directly trivialise or publicise their involvement in the production of the programme, and generally remained unknown faces within the general public. In contrast, RTD trivialised his image and involvement in the programme to an abundant degree, behind the camera and elsewhere. Not only did he take the liberty of script editing every story and writing well over half himself (as with Moffat and Chibnall, where the position of showrunner had replaced that of producer), but various newspapers would label the programme as “Russell T Davies’ Doctor Who”, whilst RTD himself would feature in front of the camera in featurettes such as Confidential and reinforce the paramount nature of his involvement via describing the decisions made as “fantastic”, “bonkers” and “brilliant”.

Such forms of ego-driven hyperbole were rarely in use when TruWho was publicised and produced, and I wonder if said hyperbole contributed to NuWho’s initial major mainstream success and popularity amidst the more vacuous corners of the media. This is something that Moffat and Chibnall would also come to exhibit, and I’m wondering if such repetitive hyperbole came to overshadow the obvious flaws of countless stories in the case of the general public, and depicted the programme as akin to the “brilliant” success the NuWho production team seemed so desperate to evoke. Of course, the timelessness of one’s work will always overshadow personalities, hence why NuWho’s success has been so short term when compared to TruWho’s.

181The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 23rd December 2019, 3:06 pm

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

Bernard Marx wrote:Thought I’d bump this thread up again, as something else has occurred to me.

The likes of Verity Lambert, Barry Letts, Philip Hinchcliffe etc never went out of their way to directly trivialise or publicise their involvement in the production of the programme, and generally remained unknown faces within the general public. In contrast, RTD trivialised his image and involvement in the programme to an abundant degree, behind the camera and elsewhere. Not only did he take the liberty of script editing every story and writing well over half himself (as with Moffat and Chibnall, where the position of showrunner had replaced that of producer), but various newspapers would label the programme as “Russell T Davies’ Doctor Who”, whilst RTD himself would feature in front of the camera in featurettes such as Confidential and reinforce the paramount nature of his involvement via describing the decisions made as “fantastic”, “bonkers” and “brilliant”.

Such forms of ego-driven hyperbole were rarely in use when TruWho was publicised and produced, and I wonder if said hyperbole contributed to NuWho’s initial major mainstream success and popularity amidst the more vacuous corners of the media. This is something that Moffat and Chibnall would also come to exhibit, and I’m wondering if such repetitive hyperbole came to overshadow the obvious flaws of countless stories in the case of the general public, and depicted the programme as akin to the “brilliant” success the NuWho production team seemed so desperate to evoke. Of course, the timelessness of one’s work will always overshadow personalities, hence why NuWho’s success has been so short term when compared to TruWho’s.

To be fair (and this is a thin to be fair), this is less of NewWho's showrunners being egocentric, and more of the times when behind the scenes become more dominant. It's not exactly new for NewWho to have more emphasis on the showrunners being interviewed, and them talking about their works, for better or worse.

182The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 23rd December 2019, 4:17 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

I think if there was a big thing made of attaching Russell T Davies' name to being the author of the revival, it was partly to do with why RTD was given the show in the first place.

After the success of Queer as Folk for Channel 4, I think the BBC had their eye on recruiting a writer like RTD back into their ranks, and so offering him the chance to revive Doctor Who and have complete creative control over it was the carrot. There are some accounts (though these tend to come more from the sycophants) that even suggest it was RTD who demanded there had to be a Doctor Who revival series if the BBC wanted his services.

It's possible the media was playing up the impression that a Doctor Who as imagined by the guy who did Queer as Folk and The Second Coming was going to be something unique in itself, and that'd be its selling point.

As for the infantile hyperbole he came out with, it all had the desperation of someone who wanted the show to be accepted by the philistines and seen as just a bit of fun not to take too seriously or to see as sci-fi. I don't know if it helped the public get behind the show, but I think it definitely signalled to the more elite fans that this was a show for them and their non-fan friends and co-workers, rather than for those other fans who they now regarded as an embarrassing older relative (it doesn't sound that sinister put that way, but some of those elitist fans seemed to display a manic paranoia that their former fan friends might suddenly be showing signs of being an embarrassing liability for saying anything not populist enough, and it did become something of a witch hunt - one I'll never forget).

It made them feel reassured that this idiot trying to be down with the public, was their fan spokesman rather than Ian Levine. That he was calling it 'brilliant' in a way that suggested it conjured feelings in all viewers, beyond the simple fan pleasures of continuity references in otherwise leaden, humorless episodes.

183The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 23rd December 2019, 4:51 pm

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:
Bernard Marx wrote:Thought I’d bump this thread up again, as something else has occurred to me.

The likes of Verity Lambert, Barry Letts, Philip Hinchcliffe etc never went out of their way to directly trivialise or publicise their involvement in the production of the programme, and generally remained unknown faces within the general public. In contrast, RTD trivialised his image and involvement in the programme to an abundant degree, behind the camera and elsewhere. Not only did he take the liberty of script editing every story and writing well over half himself (as with Moffat and Chibnall, where the position of showrunner had replaced that of producer), but various newspapers would label the programme as “Russell T Davies’ Doctor Who”, whilst RTD himself would feature in front of the camera in featurettes such as Confidential and reinforce the paramount nature of his involvement via describing the decisions made as “fantastic”, “bonkers” and “brilliant”.

Such forms of ego-driven hyperbole were rarely in use when TruWho was publicised and produced, and I wonder if said hyperbole contributed to NuWho’s initial major mainstream success and popularity amidst the more vacuous corners of the media. This is something that Moffat and Chibnall would also come to exhibit, and I’m wondering if such repetitive hyperbole came to overshadow the obvious flaws of countless stories in the case of the general public, and depicted the programme as akin to the “brilliant” success the NuWho production team seemed so desperate to evoke. Of course, the timelessness of one’s work will always overshadow personalities, hence why NuWho’s success has been so short term when compared to TruWho’s.

To be fair (and this is a thin to be fair), this is less of NewWho's showrunners being egocentric, and more of the times when behind the scenes become more dominant. It's not exactly new for NewWho to have more emphasis on the showrunners being interviewed, and them talking about their works, for better or worse.
No, it isn’t. But I’m wondering if that approach and that commitment to personality may have contributed to NuWho’s initial success. There were certainly scenarios where RTD would feed the press with Tabloid-baiting statements, which seemed less associated with the artistic merits of his works and more to do with enhancing the noise in the media associated with the programme.

See this: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2009/dec/23/doctor-who-russell-davies-tennant

It’s one thing to discuss the merits and mechanisms behind one’s scripts, and what inspired them creatively and intellectually, but referencing something akin to the X-Factor as a main influence seems less associated with creative inspiration and more with popularist appeal, thus contributing to the hyperbole I referred to earlier “If we could have the voice at the beginning of the X Factor introducing each episode, I would do it”.

Similarly, this interview between RTD and Verity Lambert highlights the difference between both their approaches in discussing Doctor Who:
https://www.gamesradar.com/uk/from-the-sfx-archive-russell-t-davies-meets-verity-lambert/

Examine RTD’s use of exaggerated exclamations and phrases of brevity “Marvellous! “Radical!” “They must have thought you were bananas!” It’s a technique that clearly works, hence why RTD is often labelled a “genius” by particular corners of the media. I’m not debasing him for it per se, but as Tanmann points out, it does signal a populist approach and a desire to be heard and accepted by the Philistines as opposed to listened to. See how Lambert’s responses contrast considerably to RTD’s.

Of course, information concerning behind the scenes information will be more in demand in today’s digital age, but notice how the NuWho commentaries are generally extremely sycophantic, whereas the TruWho commentaries tend to be considerably more scathing and more concerned about the craft on display. Such a sycophancy contributes to the notion of the NuWho production team being less concerned about the quality of the stories at hand, and more with their perception and popularity.

See the commentary for Love and Monsters, where Julie Gardner discusses how “superb” the direction is and how “detailed and brilliant” certain shots are (one including a less than two second shot of Elton’s roof which is itself compressed and reveals little), and where the cast collectively describe the Absorbaloff as “scary” and a “brilliant creation”. And then see the commentary for The Silurians, where Terrence Dicks and Barry Letts remark on particular cliffhangers being weak, criticisms that are difficult to come by when the NuWho production team discuss their stories. It’s one thing to the artist to discuss their works, but if they spend most of their discussion on hyperbolic sychophancy, it tends to result in a less engaging and informed interview or discussion as far as I’m concerned.

184The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 23rd December 2019, 9:20 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Love and Monsters is a brilliantly directed story, though. Those vlog shots of Elton are like totally
avant-garde, man.

185The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 23rd December 2019, 9:45 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

It looked like a bloody student film.

186The success of New Who: Debunking a myth - Page 8 Empty Re: The success of New Who: Debunking a myth 23rd December 2019, 10:00 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Joking aside, I really don't like the cameras they used back then. I don't mind Series 1 but it isn't pretty to look at it.

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