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Season 21: Too Bleak?

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Ludders
Bernard Marx
SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe
Tanmann
burrunjor
Kaijuko
iank
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1Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Season 21: Too Bleak? 2nd November 2019, 11:41 pm

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Davison's third and final season is  seen by fandom as either being where the show starting going to complete shit or where Davison finally found his feet....

What is your opinion, Season 21: Saint or Sin- Okay, this is starting to sound fucking stupid!


My ratings

Warriors Of The Deep: 1/5
The Awakening: 4/5
Frontios: 3.5/5
Resurrection Of The Daleks: 2.5/5
Planet Of Fire: 2.5/5
The Caves Of Androzani: 5/5
The Twin Dilemma: 2.5/5



Last edited by Indrid Mercury on 3rd November 2019, 2:50 pm; edited 3 times in total

2Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 3rd November 2019, 12:04 am

iank

iank

It's a generally good season. Warriors sucks, as does Resurrection, but the rest ranges from fine to very good. Not a favourite, but still good solid Who.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

3Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 3rd November 2019, 9:40 am

Ludders

Ludders

Not as good as 20, but far better than 19.
Caves in obviously a stone cold classic. Ressurection is rather incoherent, but it's not THAT bad. And I also like The Awakening, which is far better than the other Davo 2 parters. Nobody seems to mention it much, but I find it quite an atmospheric and underrated little story.
Yes, Warriors is absolute crap, and Planet of Fire is pretty poor too if you ask me, whilst Frontios is not terrible but just average. So yeah... not the best, but not the worst.

4Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 3rd November 2019, 9:55 am

Kaijuko

Kaijuko

Any Season that features the near-perfect The Caves of Androzani should be very highly regarded, even if the rest of S21 was shite. Fortunately, it isn't:

Good:
Androzani
The Awakening
Frontios

So-So:
Planet of Fire
Resurrection of The Daleks

Bad:
Warriors of the Deep

Not a massive PD fan, but he does seem to improve in this season, especially in Androzani (ironic, that his most convincing performance is also his last).

Season 21: Too Bleak? Who_512

5Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 3rd November 2019, 11:55 am

burrunjor

burrunjor

Its definitely the most schizophrenic of all the Davison seasons.

Season 19 is overall pretty good, whilst season 20 is a bit mediocre.

This series however has some of the all time best DW ever made, and some of the worst.

Caves of Androzani is a classic, whilst Frontios and the Awakening are great. Resurrection of the Daleks I'll defend to the death. IMO its a brilliant story, and one that actually moves the Davros story arc along brilliantly.

I didn't like the way in Destiny Davros was so happy to work with the Daleks again after Genesis. It undid the ending of that story in a way. Resurrection however moves it on by having Davros try and build his own race of Daleks which sets up Revelation and Remembrance.

I also love how the Doctor develops in all of those stories. In Genesis the Doctor doesn't want to destroy the Daleks as he feels they have a place in the universe, as evil as they are. In Resurrection he knows he was wrong and wants to kill Davros, but morally isn't prepared to shoot someone when they are unarmed.

At the end of Resurrection he realises that was wrong and so in Revelation he is prepared to kill Davros, but he underestimates him. In order to make up for 5's lack of confidence, 6, is too confident, and so Davros outwits him. At the end of Revelation however, Colin assures Davros that he will be waiting for him next time and he is.

McCoy in Remembrance is ready for Davros from both a practical and moral point of view and seemingly does what the previous three either couldn't or wouldn't. It brings the story to a fantastic close, yet leaves it open for future stories as McCoy is just as unsure if what he did was right as much as Tom at the end of Genesis. Both stories show them struggling with the decision (the have I the right scene, the cafe scene.) And both show them talking it over with their companion at the end in a way where the viewer is left to wonder if what they have done was the right thing.

IMO the Davros story arc is my favourite from Classic Who and Resurrection serves as arguably the most important part of it, after Genesis. I think the bleakness and darker elements of the story are vital in the development of the Doctor overall. It makes sense that after that slaughter, 6 and 7 would be harder in dealing with Davros.

On the flip side however Twin Dilemma and Warriors of the Deep are among the worst stories ever made. My good man Tanman has already dissected Warriors and why its so shit, so I won't bother, but Twin Dilemma IMO marks one of the few times Classic Who went into New Who territory.

It makes the Doctor too different. Now I get that its meant to be because he has gone made, but still its way too severe. The single most important thing is not to change his character too much. The Twin Dilemma ironically I think set the precedent for the Doctor can be anyone crap that ultimately led to the death of the character as a whole.

Planet of Fire is average meanwhile. Its fairly dull and wrote them into the most ridiculous corner by killing the Master off in such a definite way, and then not having the balls to keep him dead.

6Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 3rd November 2019, 1:19 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

For me the season is tainted by the worst stories to ever disgrace the franchise. So much so, it might've been better if the show had simply ended on The Five Doctors instead.

Warriors of the Deep is just plain irredeemable and utterly craftless, and I don't understand for the life of me why the story's insane, pacifist suicide cult morality isn't despised equally as much as the infestation of SJW nonsense during Moffat and Chibnall's era. To my mind this was where Doctor Who as a TV show stopped being entertainment and turned instead into a misanthropic cult for the cranks of fandom only. The body-count ending isn't 'edgy', it's just a nasty, cowardly way for the story to keep the audience on-side with the Doctor at his most unreasonable by conveniently killing off everyone who rationally disagreed with him (how fans can say it's about mankind's failure to listen to 'reason' is beyond me). It's so awful it practically makes me side with Grade by default, since he seemed the only one even trying to prevent shit like this from airing and tainting the show's legacy. I mean after all if Doctor who is no longer even decent television, it seems to defeat the point of making it at all.

The Awakening I have a feeling could've been an okay four-parter, but as a two-parter it's a bit of a mess with glimpses of what could've been a great pay-off.

Frontios had a great opening episode, but from there it seemed to become needlessly convoluted, and the final bit of reverse psychology the Doctor pulls on the Tractators isn't quite as satisfying as it was in Remembrance of the Daleks. Nonetheless there's enough good stuff here to suggest the show would've been in safer hands had Bidmead stayed on than it was with Saward.

Resurrection of the Daleks is just a horrid, misanthropic mess really, epitomising Saward's lack of craft, and his worst blend of gratuitous violence and maddening apathy. There are a few rare gem moments scattered in there. Davison and Molloy give some of their best performances, but most of the rest of the cast is downright awful. Maybe Davison's moment of nearly assassinating Davros is interesting characterization, but it just feels like a drawn from a hat development for the sake of padding. Davros and the Daleks start strong, but turn from formidable forces to self-destructive, self-defeating idiots very quickly.

Planet of Fire is a bit of a plotless runaround of non-sequitors. Some moments just feel plain wrong, with Peri's dynamic with her stepdad feeling unsettlingly creepy. But there are some gem moments in there too. Turlough's goodbye is well done, but sadly also shows that as an actor, Mark Strickson was largely wasted potential for much of his run. Frankly I think I would've liked this story a lot more if the Master had stayed dead.

Caves of Androzani is pretty solid, but I do think it's been a bit hyped to death by fandom. It's an incredibly involving, arresting story with a lot of bite, but there are pat moments where Morgus feels written as a bit too much of a pantomime capitalist villain. Davison is given a set of balls finally by Holmes, and his regeneration is beautifully handled until the final fifteen seconds where Colin's bullish first lines just utterly trample the mood. Sadly I don't entirely go along with the idea that Davison's self-sacrifice is such a noble, redeeming act. Back at the start of the season he didn't even lift a finger to save the humans and was just as duplicitous and sinister in his motives as any of the shady gunrunners here. Dying to save Peri is the least he could've done.

The Twin Dilemma. For many years I couldn't even get past the first cliffhanger. The constant petty bickering with Peri, Hugo's stupidity in assuming his rescuers (who didn't even disarm him) are the ones who destroyed his ship and his fleet, the fact the Doctor only has to kick him to disarm him, the fact the Doctor's been such a dick I don't care if he survives.... Yeah this one's just shit.

Overall, whilst there's a few gems in there, and I can see why it seemed an improvement on Season 20, I still think the bad of the season is toxic enough to make me wish the season didn't exist at all.



Last edited by Tanmann on 3rd November 2019, 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

7Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 3rd November 2019, 3:41 pm

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe

I actually quite like Season 21 on the whole. I think that it's where Davison feels the most comfortable in the role, as well as 5 having the best characterisation, Tegan is actually tolerable here, Turlough finally gets something to do after being shafted in King's Demons and The Five Doctors and I'd say that most of the stories are overall solid.

However, Season 21 is almost completely ruined by the mere existence of Warriors of the Deep. The Silurians and Sea Devils are completely wasted here, the set design takes the spot for worst looking set in a Who story and makes no thematic sense to how it's supposed to look in the story (shouldn't it have been more drab and cramped considering the circumstances instead of it looking like a cheap 70s Disco set for a porno). The performances are so wooden from everyone that I'd rather watch beige paint dry, the Myrka speaks for itself, it kills characters for the sake of killing characters. But the worst thing bar none is the 5th Doctor himself. Don't get me wrong, I've been complaining that he needed a backbone, but Warriors takes the most horrible direction with his character. He's on the side of the Silurians so much to the point that I wonder why he tends to be compassionate to humans in the first place, the Doctor says hello to the staff after creating a nuclear explosion, and then topping it off by accidentally murdering both sides. This may be the single mishandled a Doctor has ever been. Not just the worst Classic Who story, but possibly the worst Who story ever, and I've seen shite like Twice Upon a Turd and Let's Kill Hitler.

The Awakening is a far better story and a rather underrated one. A wonderful gothic atmosphere that has gorgeous location filming. The only problem was that I wanted more of it, and that there wasn't a sequel story considering that the Malus was a prelude to a bigger invasion.

Frontios shows all of the promise that I wished that the Davison era fully had. The 5th Doctor is finally witty, quirky and authoritative all the way through (makes me wonder/wish if Bidmead should have stayed on as script editor instead of Saward), Tegan is actually a likeable character and her worst traits are extremely toned down. This in particular is also a wonderful character piece for Turlough, and the stuff that he suffers through may be the most harrowing things that a companion has gone through. The concept is terrifying, and the execution is just as creepy for a family audience. The guest cast is remarkably strong, particularly characters like Norna and Brazen. This is one of my favourite Davison stories easily.

I won't lie, Resurrection of the Daleks is thoroughly entertaining but the more I actually look at it, the more problems that I have with it. However 5's character is not exactly one of them. This sort of ideal that 'I need to change my actions and be less of a pacifist' is far better realised here than it was in Warriors. Plus I do think that it does make gradual sense that the Doctor would want to kill Davros after the events of Genesis. And the direction is effective and gritty for 80s Who. However everything else goes downhill from there. Turlough is about as shafted as he was back in his earlier stories, while I enjoy the creativity of the action, they certainly feel gratuitous. The Daleks have like 30 plans and only 2 of them are easy to follow for the viewer, there's some truly abysmal dialogue and it's a story that feels like it's making things up as it goes on.

Planet of Fire is really not anything noteworthy. Again, Davison brings in a strong performance (even more so than when he was usually tied up with Janet Fielding), Turlough is as great as he was in Frontios (just wished that he stuck around as he had great potential). And as usual for Fiona Cumming at this point, her direction is simply gorgeous and atmospheric. Just a shame that I can't remember anything else about the story. No, not even the scenes with Peri.

Caves of Androzani deserves all of the praise that it gets. Blisteringly exhilarating in terms of pace, drama and action. Robert Holmes brings possibly his most thought-provoking script, with Davison bringing his A-game throughout the entire 95 minutes, stylish direction from Graeme Harper and quite possibly the best cliffhangers that the show has ever had. I can't praise this story enough, everyone who has praised it has done it better than I could. Easily the best 5th Doctor story and the best regeneration story bar none.

(I'll leave Twin Dilemma for Season 22 as I feel like it fits more there than being put on as a finale to Season 21)

8Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 3rd November 2019, 7:45 pm

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

I have rather mixed feelings on season 21, as it effectively represents the Davison era at its best, but also at its absolute worst. I agree with the assessment that Davison certainly comes into his own here, as does his character for the most part, yet there is indeed one major exception to this rule, as present in Warriors of the Deep.

I’ll be blunt and state that Warriors is an abject pile of shite, for reasons perfectly articulated by Tanmann and Giraffe. It serves as both a character assassination for the Doctor under a self-righteous moral message that contradicts itself (why does he chastise the human characters in spite of merely defending themselves, and with nothing to suggest that the Silurians have any desire for peace?), and a poorly directed and acted story in its own right. A fine contender for the worst story of TruWho.

The Awakening is one I find rather enjoyable. The period setting is well realised, the guest cast are rather good, and it never overstays its welcome at merely two episodes. Aeons better than the previous story in every capacity.

I very much agree with Tanmann on Frontios. It starts brilliantly, but looses its pace and grittiness as it progresses as far as I’m concerned. Although I suppose the poor realisation of the tractators doesn’t help too much. It’s still a fine story, and far from bad.

Resurrection of the Daleks is a narrative mess in every sense, as detailed in numerous prior threads, but it’s reasonably well directed and features a handful of decent scenes which play very well out of the story’s context (Davison’s confrontation with Davros being a prime example). Not particularly good by any stretch, but not quite thoroughly awful.

Planet of Fire is very nondescript, accompanied by a very generic script by Grimwade and mostly staid acting, though the direction from Fiona Cumming is certainly good. Although on a side-note, the DVD special editions for both Enlightenment and Planet of Fire (both helmed by her) are fucking awful.

Caves of Androzani is utterly superb from start to finish, with superlative and dynamic direction from Graeme Harper in his prime, first rate characterisation across the board (with Jek being especially well written and portrayed), astute, witty yet hard-hurting Holmes-penned dialogue, and a pitch perfect characterisation of the Fifth Doctor. The best of his era, without a shadow of a doubt.

The Twin Dilemma, as already discussed by burrunjor and Tanmann, is very poor indeed for fairly obvious reasons. The direction and acting is almost entirely awful, as is the melodramatic dialogue, whilst the Doctor’s post-regenerative psychosis is never properly addressed or concluded in a narratively satisfying manner.

Far from a bad season, and honestly, I do rather like the bleak grimness of most of the stories and the overall direction the series was heading into (which became more pronounced in season 22, which I incidentally really like for the most part), but it is not without its flaws in its overall execution.

9Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 3rd November 2019, 10:46 pm

Ludders

Ludders

I completely forgot about Twin Dilemma.
Yes, that does bring the quality of the overall season down, but when deciding which season I like best, I look at it this way: How many stories do you enjoy? The answer for me is 3, against only 1 in season 19 that I moderately enjoy.
Meanwhile, there's 5 in season 20. So that's why I rank the Davison seasons as 20, 21, 19.

10Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 4th November 2019, 6:42 am

Boofer

Boofer


Warriors Of The Deep: 5/10
The Awakening: 6/10
Frontios: 6/10
Resurrection Of The Daleks: 7.5/10 (Could have been an 8 with a re-edit)
Planet Of Fire: 6/10
The Caves Of Androzani: 9/10
The Twin Dilemma: 4/10

11Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 12th February 2020, 9:08 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Warriors Of The Deep: 7.5/10
The Awakening: 7/10
Frontios: 9/10
Resurrection Of The Daleks: 10/10
Planet Of Fire: 5/10
The Caves Of Androzani: 5/10
The Twin Dilemma: 7/10

12Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 12th February 2020, 9:15 pm

Fendelman

Fendelman

Warriors Of The Deep: 6/10
The Awakening: 8/10
Frontios: 8/10
Resurrection Of The Daleks: 6/10
Planet Of Fire: 8.5/10
The Caves Of Androzani: 6/10
The Twin Dilemma: 6/10

Davison's weakest season by far.

13Season 21: Too Bleak? Empty Re: Season 21: Too Bleak? 12th February 2020, 9:23 pm

stengos

stengos

Davison' best imho

Warriors Of The Deep: 6.5/10
The Awakening: 8/10
Frontios: 8/10
Resurrection Of The Daleks: 9/10
Planet Of Fire: 8/10
The Caves Of Androzani: 10/10
The Twin Dilemma: 5.5/10

Warriors suffered because the production schedule was slashed as a result of the government's decision to unexpectedly hold an election. Not to mention the absurd decision to let loose a pantomine horse loose half way thru the show.

Anyway, a great season and i wish Peter had stayed on another year.

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