Brexit or Remain

Where does the Hive stand on brexit?

Initially I was on the fence, leaning to remain - if just for the security. I lean to the other side now.

It may likely be a short-term economic negative - but in the long term it is probably the wiser decision.

Most people will admit that the EU has problems and it seems the nature of these kind of collectives to start promising and decline over time - the problems that are beginning to show indicate the start of the greater decline. It will only exacerbate. This is a conjecture, sure, but it is the more convincing one.

And now we are to leave, we realise and/or awaken the contempt for the EU across its states, which will also likely increase with time. Brexit is either indicative of the EU's collapse anon, or the initiative. Either way we'd be better off out.

Shame that Parliament fucked it up so badly.

I’m not especially informed on how the EU fully operates (I’m not the most cultured person politically), but as far as I’m aware, it’s main problems involve specific centres or states of corruption within the European Commission. Transparency International declared the EU to be generally lacking in corruption, with a few states irking towards genuine corruption (Bulgaria being the worst offender, scoring 42/100 on the anti-corruption scale). However, it’s difficult to ascertain whether the EU would plummet to severe levels of corruption anytime soon (given that the anti-corruption scale seems to plummet or increase from nation to nation each year). These may continue to escalate or decline with time, though based on what I’ve read, I’m unsure as to what trend these nations will adhere too.

Basically, my stance is that if we were to leave the EU, it should have happened when genuine signs of corruption began to become truly pronounced as to validate Cameron’s decision to call a referendum (which he clearly did purely to gamble for the country’s future and the Conservative party rather than for practical political reasons), as it would have made the decision appear all the more logical. Were there any traces to indicate that the EU began to truly specialise in corruption in 2016, or that the UK’s political partnership with it would become detrimental (just thought I’d ask in case I’d missed something)? If not, I’d certainly stick to the remain side.

Add that to the sheer inane nature of how Brexit has commenced prior to and since the referendum. Both the remain and leave campaigns seemed to have specialised in the worst forms of political rhetoric, though the leave campaign have probably been more pronounced in this respect- Donald Tusk declared that Brexit would culminate in the destruction of western civilisation as a whole (which seemed terribly unlikely at the time), and the remain campaign seemed largely orientated around the rhetoric of fear. Though the leave campaign were exactly the same: Johnson and Gove decided to label the remain campaign “project fear” (ironically generating fear themselves), introduced the vague platitude of “taking back control” (which seemed to further evoke fear that an external force, including the UK’s EU citizens and legal immigrants (as stated in many subsequent interviews featuring certain leave voters), would be subjugating Britain), and Johnson and Gove themselves decided to backstab the PM in order to gain their own personal forms of support. It is clear than both of them had no proper intention for the leave vote to have been passed based on their hesitating responses during the following speech (though Farage seemed happy about it, as expected), and the aftermath has been a complete clusterfuck, with Cameron, May and Johnson all coming across as disturbingly incompetent, and has recently culminated in Johnson’s decisions to overrule and porogue Parliament completely unconstitutional (following an indictment of the context of Jo Cox’s death- a distinctive low).

Basically, the decision has shown the government up to be as downright incompetent in parliament as conceivably possible, and was all down to the gamble of a fucking idiot who has nary shown his face since he called the referendum, and a few platitudes yelled out by a particular political campaign coupled with Johnson’s deceptions involving distributing £350 million a week to the NHS.

With all this considered, I certainly advocate remain, and don’t see why the EU would delve so firmly into corruption too soon, though if my argument is complete shite for particular reasons, please let me know. Although the EU is fundamentally flawed, I really don’t see how leaving under these circumstances, or during this time period, was the best idea. I wouldn’t be as opposed to the idea under different political circumstances, or if the EU had descended that far, and if a Brexit Plan had actually been commissioned, but as it stands, remain.

Though under the current circumstances, I guess we’ll have to proceed with the leaving option as it’s the only alternative that won’t confuse and divide proceedings all the more. The Lib Dems have continually declared their proposal of a second referendum, though I don’t see how that’ll help affairs at all in hindsight as it does distort the concept of democracy, and the party itself is crap anyway, reaching its ultimate low point during Nick Clegg’s time as far as I’m concerned (especially after lying about abolishing tuition fees).

I would have voted leave if I had been old enough to vote.

Get the hell out.

Is that aimed at me or the OP's question?

The question.

Please note that I think we should leave the EU at this stage (given the final result and how inconvenient the delay is proving), though I’d lean towards remain with the prior political context in mind. Unless I’ve misread or misinterpreted something vital about the EU.

Not easy to answer.
I voted Leave because I'm opposed to the EU as a political entity which thrives on the neoliberal tenet of freedom of movement of capital and labour, and for all the reasons that people like Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner were anti-EU. Nothing to do with Farage or any of the Vote Leave cronies.
I grew up in a mining town which has been ravaged by heartless globalisation. Like many leave voting areas it was first decimated by Thatcherism, asset stripped and manufacturing base destroyed for the sake of short term profiteering and privatisation. Then ignored and further left behind by New Labour whose only contribution was to put even further strain on the local infrastructure and already decimated employment market in these disenfranchised areas via thoughtless immigration policies. All this followed by another decade of Tory led austerity, which hits such areas even more.
At the time I felt pretty much exactly as these people in this video do, and still feel that this is very relevant, and a big, big part of why 'Leave' won the vote.



Even so, voting for a Tory Brexit was not an easy thing to contemplate. I wasn't certain I was doing the right thing under the circumstances, being fairly sure that Cameron had only called the referendum for the sake of recapturing the minority UKIP vote.
Even though I was sure of my ideological ground, I was far from blind to the utter bullshit and disingenuous manipulations of the Leave campaign, and I knew that Boris and co would never have any intention of implementing the pledge (oh hang on, it was only a suggestion, remember) of funding the NHS to the tune of 350 million a week as was implied. There was also the fact that this was probably going to the only shot at voting in an EU referendum in my lifetime, as I was still 8 years away from being able vote in the first one.

Anyway 3 and a half years later, I'm living in Australia (although my reasons for that are entirely personal and nothing to do with the political situation in the UK) and can't believe what an utter shambles the whole Brexit debacle has been. If there was a second referendum I'd be even less sure now of how to vote than I was in 2016. There's been so much propaganda and contradictory, misleading stuff put out by both sides, and that includes 'Project Fear', that I simply don't know what or who to believe anymore, if I'm honest.

Worse still, both camps have now reached the point of religious mania, and seem to be locked in a tribalistic culture war, which has been cynically exploited by many of the politicians. Both the Tories and Labour are divided. Particularly Labour who although approx 70% of the membership and voters support Remain, are being kept on ice whilst Corbyn keeps tentatively putting his feet on both sides and hoping the ice doesn't crack.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems have positioned themselves as the anti-Brexit party and have even ditched the idea of a second referendum if they get into power. Thus ditching democracy and any pretence at being liberal, with it.
So at the moment, I'm veering more towards Remain, but I'm far from 100% sure about it. I think I'm still a leaver at heart, but from the point of view of anti-neoliberalism. Sadly, I now think that leaving EU won't make much difference. If the UK isn't going to be Europe's bitch, it's just going to be America's bitch instead. Which could be seen as out of the frying pan into the fire.

Ronnie wrote:I knew that Boris and co would never have any intention of implementing the pledge (oh hang on, it was only a suggestion, remember) of funding the NHS to the tune of 350 million a week as was implied.

Half those pledges really weren't worth the bus they were written on.

Ronnie wrote: If the UK isn't going to be Europe's bitch, it's just going to be America's bitch instead. Which could be seen as out of the frying pan into the fire.

This is why I voted remain. You just end up exchanging one late capitalistic model with another. One is global and predicated on the freedom of movement and capital, the other populist, protectionist and driven by spurious appeals to identity.

A well-managed Lexit would have probably been my preferred choice, but I knew we wouldn't be getting one given the fact Labour are a majority pro-EU party.

Right wing outlets incessantly comment about the EU being a pet project of the elites, but I see this as a clash within the establishment. I struggle with the notion that JRM, Johnson and the other right wing hawks in the cabinet, are somehow the voice of the people.

Indeed, there appears to be influence on Johnson from speculators who have borrowed billions in the hope of shorting the pound in the event of a no deal. Mogg's father even co-wrote a blueprint on how to cash in on such disaster capitalism. And we know JRM himself isn't really interested in ethics given his willingness to preach against birth control, yet profit from it obliquely.

They'll be sighs of relief from many corporates and the people they lobby (bribe) if we stay in. But speculators and their friends will be wanking their kidneys into a magic sock if we leave with no deal. I imagine Crispin Odey has prepared cocktail syringes of cocaine, champagne and fetal stem cells to stick up his hog's eye in the event he makes another £500m from sitting on his smug, fat arse.

Cunnus Maximus wrote:... I knew we wouldn't be getting one given the fact Labour are a majority pro-EU party.

How so?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-remain-brexit-vote-referendum-conference-corbyn-a9117291.html

I think that is election suicide. I would prefer they went remain but ducking out on the biggest issue going is just stupid.

Rawkuss wrote:

Cunnus Maximus wrote:... I knew we wouldn't be getting one given the fact Labour are a majority pro-EU party.

How so?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-remain-brexit-vote-referendum-conference-corbyn-a9117291.html

I think that is election suicide. I would prefer they went remain but ducking out on the biggest issue going is just stupid.

There's a difference between conference-leadership unity, and the feelings of the membership. It's a shroud; a political play that allows Corbyn to keep his feet in both camps, while still allowing the majority of members to reject Brexit in a referendum.

The polling, part of an ongoing wider academic study into attitudes in various parties, found that only 18% opposed Labour campaigning for a second referendum, while 88% would then opt for remain if such a vote was held.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/02/most-labour-members-believe-corbyn-should-back-second-brexit-vote

Remain, because I believe we need to be united in order to face the problems that will come, and we will need a unified military force when the world finally stands up to America, or if Russia kicks off again.

I also believe the EU allows the policies of the crazy right to be kept in check.

Yup, because it's definitely the right who are crazy these days...

iank wrote:Yup, because it's definitely the right who are crazy these days...

It's really not a choice of either or.

The right never stopped being crazy, especially the God-botherers, Randists, neocons and Friedmanites. Now you can add Trumpists to that list.

The far-left have descended into identitarian madness and often don't bother with economic arguments any more. They're the smallest and most irrelevant facet of our political lives, yet the media would have you think they're an army of millions: hiding under your beds, or looking to get you fired for saying something twatty online at 4am in the morning.

Most people are comfortable with moderate, liberal cultural shifts - like gay marriage and legal abortion - and reasonable social democratic economic policies that start to reverse the upward distribution of wealth of the last 40 years or so.



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iank wrote:Yup, because it's definitely the right who are crazy these days...

Corbyn may have some strange ideas, but they are far left damaging than anything right wingers come up with. Modern right wing politics (especially American) are horrific, and need dealing with.

Remain.

Because i don't think the politicians who pushed for Leave understood what was involved in leaving a political and economic international union of which we have been a member of for over 40 years.

I don't understand all the ramifications either but then i don't claim to and i don't draw down a salary in excess of £60k under the pretence that i do.

If we leave, we'll have no choice but to bow down to the whims of our autistic cousins from across the pond. This, at a time, when we should be taking the strictest of actions against them. We need Europe for the eventual war that will come.

How can we defeat America on our own? It is impossible. And if we leave, it will further divide Europe, which means we won't have any chance at all.

It also puts us at risk against Russia, although I view the US to be the bigger threat.

doesnt even make sense

our closest ally outside the commonwealth and our cultural progeny

how is america a threat in any way

in every sense the opposite of a threat

imagine actually wanting a war just because of some insignificant narcissism of small differences gripes

no offence bud

Just to be clear, the below refers to the US business and political elite, not the publc.

Because the Americans frankly are childishly ignorant and stupid of global affairs, and lack the social graces required to de-escalate situations. Their corrupt nature in terms of business and politics means they will continue to cause havoc with whoever the deal with.

America is a country that not only is not to be trusted, but should have had joined military action taken against it years ago for its acts of terrorism, illegal wars, and total disregard for international law.

America by my book is on par with Russia and China as a threat, but I'd argue it is far worse due to its influence capabilities.

its all too speculative honestly

brexit i mean

its even enough on both side i m o so just leave it and see what happens