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Kill the Moon

+4
iank
Pepsi Maxil
Kaijuko
Tanmann
8 posters

Kill the Moon

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1Kill the Moon Empty Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 12:59 am

Rawkuss

Rawkuss

Peter Harness wrote:
Fen'Harel'sTARDIS wrote:I thoroughly enjoyed the wondrous, whimsical and fantastical element of the dragon egg being the moon in the episode, but wondered at the Doctor's choice to do the 'adult' thing and play Solomon by 'letting them make the decision' being looked down on by the other characters, when that is the very thing they've been whining and clamoring for.

I have noticed this happening frequently in the series as of late, where the Doctor does something heroic and everyone reprimands him, or derides him for daring to be traumatized while they could easily save themselves by doing what he (and now she, it, etc., which is perfectly fine) says in certain instances. In real life, the Doctor would be a traumatized war veteran with PTSD who needed care, yet all I see in the show is that he is a selfish old man, how DARE he be a heroic figure? So much of current media/entertainment seems afflicted by this collective oblivion with regards to the emotional needs of our heroic figures... it seems strange, cruel, harsh and somewhat narcissistic to me. Do you have any thought as to why this treatment of our heroes seems to be a trend?

Well, that's a big question... And I think it's a difficulty with Kill the Moon.

My thoughts on this are going to be a bit rambling and unfocused, so please forgive that.

I think the fact that the Doctor absents himself from the process and leaves Clara, Courtney and Lundvik - the humans, the representatives of planet Earth - to make the decision for themselves - is uncomfortable and hard to work out for a lot of people who watched it. I guess that's one of the (many) problems that people have with the episode. And, to be honest, I find it tricky myself - as I believe I should do.

Because I don't believe that it's the purpose of a writer or a storyteller to instruct the audience what to think. I think it's the purpose of a writer to entertain, to provoke emotion, to provoke debate, and ultimately, not to come down on either side. To show a whole bunch of characters who are doing what they happen to think is right, and to allow the audience to engage with that, to have an intellectual as well as emotional response to the story. I don't want to package the moral of the story up in a neat little parcel and tie it with a bow.

As a writer, I don't necessarily know all the answers. And I don't believe that I should. I think that drama is a two-way process. The writer and the actors present something for the audience to take away and think about.

I think that the Doctor talks about grey areas at some point in the script. And I guess, looking back on it, that this is what I subconsciously or otherwise wanted to explore. The whole moral decision, the actions of the Doctor, and Clara's response to it - I think they're all grey areas. Areas in which nobody is totally right or totally wrong. And even though I wasn't specifically trying to write an allegory about abortion or the right to choose, I think the fact that a lot of people read it as such an allegory is interesting. Because basically, the whole right-to-life versus right-to-choose debate is a complex moral debate, with plenty of grey areas; one which deserves serious thought and understanding from both sides, but which instead is more often than not polarised into one side being right and the other being wrong.

We live in very binary times. In which it seems that one has to subscribe to one polar-opposite view or another. Whereas, in fact, I believe that the majority of human experience takes place in the grey areas in between.

I think that Kill the Moon is about how difficult it is to make decisions, how there are so many shades of grey within people's characters. And what you're talking about in terms of how people treat their heroes is perhaps a part of this.

Basically, for me, every character in that story has their flaws, and their good points, and deserves to be understood. Nobody comes out of it 100% blameless or 100% guilty. And I think that's probably the way it should be. I'd never make a moral judgement on any of my characters. Nobody's perfect. And to understand all about any one person is to forgive all.

I still like Kill the Moon very much. In fact, I think it's probably my favourite of all my Doctor Who stories, because I think it's the trickiest, and because it divides people so much.

I understand that people think the science is crazy and unscientific, but all the science in Doctor Who is crazy and unscientific. I could have chosen to plaster it over with technobabble, but I didn't, because I thought that anyone who had a problem with the silliness of the science could just make up their own technobabble. I understand that people think the fact that the Moon is an egg is a silly idea, but all the ideas in Doctor Who are silly, they just don't happen to effect something that you can see in the sky every night. And the kids that I know who watched it think that the fact that the Moon is an egg is a very magical thing. I know that many people were enjoying the episode up until that point where the Doctor says, "the Moon's an egg", and afterwards, they thought it was the worst thing they'd ever seen since Time and the Rani, but so be it. I want to take such risks, and I want to surprise people and I suppose, a natural consequence of that is that sometimes people will think it's too much or too silly. But I think in Doctor Who, more than any other show, you need to keep on pushing at the boundaries.

And I love the fact that people argue about Kill the Moon, that it provokes so much debate. Because that's what I think drama should do. If you please everyone then probably you're doing something wrong.

http://forums.drwho-online.co.uk/threads/question-what-was-the-motivation-behind-kill-the-moon.833658/

2Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 2:17 am

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

I gave it a 5. An average.

For a brief middle section of the story I thought it was actually pretty solid and compelling. Then it just seemed to cop-out and feel like a bit of a pointless exercise after all.

As for the points raised in the quoted discussion, I think there's a difference between the Doctor being a bit of a more compelling hero with moments of moral ambiguity, and the Doctor just being an obstinate, slippery passive aggressive dick just to artificially pad the story or dilemma out.

That's what bothered me about the Saward era shitshow, and it also kinda bothers me here because I still don't know for the life of me what prompted Capaldi to ditch Clara in what just seemed an adolescent strop. I'd want there to be a crucial reason for the Doctor to act that capriciously with his companion, because I tend to usually trust that people would put their lives in his hands for a justified reason, and this made me seriously doubt Clara ever would again for seemingly no reason.

Plus the Doctor is a hero you kind of welcomed into your living room on good faith. It feels a kick in the teeth if he suddenly acts in a way that causes all that faith to unravel, and stories to no longer feel like you're watching him even care to rise to the challenge anymore, because if he doesn't care, how can we?

As for the science, I think we made allowances in the old series for the more whimsical science ideas for a few reasons. We accepted it was a show that used the meager resources it had, and this perhaps allowed us to accept certain band aids over creaky physics. As did the paradox of the Tardis itself. It was the kind of optical illusion that allowed the laws around the show to bend slightly too, as if its eerie effect was somehow contagious.

The problem with the New Series for me is a few things. Firstly, it's so cynically ratings-conscious that the whimsy doesn't feel sincere but the contempt for the intellect of the masses does. And the moments of cartoon physics and pixie dust feel crowbarred in as indigestibly as the soap and soapboxing moments, and horrid gurning humour. These things hold the pace up, whereas something like The Invisible Enemy seems to use its out there ideas to propel the story's pace without needless interruption.

I'm not sure what else there is to say. I think Harness is somewhat right when he talks about how writing to take risks and be bolder can make for better television than writing with the insipid goal of everyone's approval in mind. It certainly brings to mind that the period of the show around Season 20 where Ian Levine was doing the script vetting and scripts were being written to his approval felt like the most dull and creatively neutered period, where no-one's heart felt in it.

The problem is, whenever the New Who crowd say things like this, it feels more like they're justifying outlandish efforts at online trolling than writing genuinely challenging TV.

3Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 4:12 am

iank

iank

Let's be honest, it's complete shit.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

4Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 6:55 am

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

I opted for 1. It’s far from ‘allegorical’ as he so puts it- it’s just moronic, and Clara’s characterisation by this stage became even more insufferable as well. Also, I’m not exactly sure that every piece of scientific information given in the Classic Series was purely nonsense- there were a few examples of that (see The Time Monster), but at no point does the story appropriate genuine science and place it in a sci-fi context (e.g, The Second Law of Thermodynamics in season 18) as a means of making it all the more believable. What Harness is saying here reminds me of what Rian Johnson and his defenders were saying about The Last Jedi- that any sort of plot contrivance or bad writing could be overlooked in favour of the themes at hand, when in reality, the quality of said themes can be thoroughly hindered by weak writing due to being ineffectively explored.

And the section where he discusses polarising his audience rather than making something that appeals to everyone is fine out of context, though this also echoes Johnson’s sentiments about The Last Jedi, and it’s not divisive due to proposing an ‘intellectual’ philosophical question so much as coercing a simplistic message down its audience’s throats which comes across as patronisingly preachy. The main way to ascertain whether it succeeded would be whether the story will age well, as many things that divide audiences gain a more evident consensus over time. I see no signs of this story ageing very well due to said coerced message, as it leaves no genuine food for thought. As Tanmann says, because New Who is generally staunchly anti-intellectual, the concept of nuance allegory being integrated into it just seems laughable.

5Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 7:46 am

Kaijuko

Kaijuko

"I understand that people think the science is crazy and unscientific, but all the science in Doctor Who is crazy and unscientific. I could have chosen to plaster it over with technobabble, but I didn't, because I thought that anyone who had a problem with the silliness of the science could just make up their own technobabble. I understand that people think the fact that the Moon is an egg is a silly idea, but all the ideas in Doctor Who are silly, they just don't happen to effect something that you can see in the sky every night. And the kids that I know who watched it think that the fact that the Moon is an egg is a very magical thing."

I really don't like this - it's further proof (if needed) that an awful lot of NuWho writers consider the show magical fantasy, not science fiction/science fantasy. It supports and legitimises Moffat's misguided view that:"Doctor Who is a fairy tale – not sci-fi, not fantasy but properly a fairy tale.".
It's also a cop-out - I can make my story as silly as I like because the history of Doctor Who is littered with ideas and stories that are just as silly and I don't have to adhere to any boring laws of physics or science. The implication is that anyone who didn't realize this and expects 'technobabble' is pretty silly themselves. To some writers, perhaps, the older literary tradition of fables and folklore is far more 'respectable' than geeky, nerdy Sci-Fi.

The show was created partly to teach children/families about History and Science . As a nipper, I loved the weird science of Who - the strange idea of a parallel reality in 'Inferno', the time-travel paradox at the heart of 'The Day of The Daleks', the anti-matter world at the centre of a black hole, pocket universes, event horizons, entropy, tachyons, mutation, nuclear war, cybernetics, etc.

And I think the story is just diabolically bad, with or without the moon being an egg.



Last edited by Kaijuko on 10th September 2019, 10:14 am; edited 3 times in total

6Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 9:01 am

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

All I remember is the egg and that woeful scene involving a tearful and angry Clara. The quality in the Capaldi era was often so poor.

7Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 9:06 am

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

Commander Maxil wrote:All I remember is the egg and that woeful scene involving a tearful and angry Clara. The quality in the Capaldi era was often so poor.
I have to agree. Though I much prefer Capaldi to Eccleston and Tennant as the Doctor, his era is in large part oppressively shit. Series 8, 9 and 10 range from mediocre to PTSD inducingly bad.

8Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 9:08 am

iank

iank

Agreed.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

9Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 9:19 am

Rawkuss

Rawkuss

The nonsense science in Time Monster is one ting, patently impossible like an egg the size of the thing that just hatched it is offensively stupid. That is so much worse than the moon simply being an egg. Honestly, I thought the first 30 mins were just dull and the final 15 were just utter shite in so many ways.

10Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 9:28 am

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

Rawkuss wrote:The nonsense science in Time Monster is one ting, patently impossible like an egg the size of the thing that just hatched it is offensively stupid. That is so much worse than the moon simply being an egg. Honestly, I thought the first 30 mins were just dull and the final 15 were just utter shite in so many ways.
Oh- I agree. Don’t get me wrong- though I consider Time Monster to be the worst Pertwee story, it’s a masterpiece compared to Kill the Moon, and at least has commendable philosophical influences behind it (as with Plato). Kill the Moon is just bollocks, and nothing else.

11Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 10:35 am

Rawkuss

Rawkuss

Bernard Marx wrote:
Rawkuss wrote:The nonsense science in Time Monster is one ting, patently impossible like an egg the size of the thing that just hatched it is offensively stupid. That is so much worse than the moon simply being an egg. Honestly, I thought the first 30 mins were just dull and the final 15 were just utter shite in so many ways.
Oh- I agree. Don’t get me wrong- though I consider Time Monster to be the worst Pertwee story, it’s a masterpiece compared to Kill the Moon, and at least has commendable philosophical influences behind it (as with Plato). Kill the Moon is just bollocks, and nothing else.

Sorry, wasn't trying to counter anything you said. I was just too lazy to think of another example other than The Time Monster. Big Grin

Also, I think the idea that the criticism can be reduced to having a problem with the moon being an egg is reductive. There's so much more to hate about this one LOL

12Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 10:43 am

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

Rawkuss wrote:
Bernard Marx wrote:
Rawkuss wrote:The nonsense science in Time Monster is one ting, patently impossible like an egg the size of the thing that just hatched it is offensively stupid. That is so much worse than the moon simply being an egg. Honestly, I thought the first 30 mins were just dull and the final 15 were just utter shite in so many ways.
Oh- I agree. Don’t get me wrong- though I consider Time Monster to be the worst Pertwee story, it’s a masterpiece compared to Kill the Moon, and at least has commendable philosophical influences behind it (as with Plato). Kill the Moon is just bollocks, and nothing else.

Sorry, wasn't trying to counter anything you said. I was just too lazy to think of another example other than The Time Monster. Big Grin

Also, I think the idea that the criticism can be reduced to having a problem with the moon being an egg is reductive. There's so much more to hate about this one LOL
I might review and eviscerate this one next- I’ve not seen it for years, though recall hating almost everything about it, and I think a re-watch may be in order just to affirm that. LOL

13Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 11:18 am

ClockworkOcean

avatar
Dick Tater

I've given it a 2, as it's not entirely without merit. Capaldi and Coleman are both on top form, and there are a few genuinely tense and atmospheric scenes, but on the whole, it is complete and utter shite.

The bullshit science is beyond what I'm willing to tolerate. The concept itself was always incredibly silly, but it's made a hundred times worse by the unforgivably thoughtless execution. Two small, effortless changes could have made the idea much easier for a lot of viewers to swallow. Rather than just letting the comment about the creature "laying a new egg" stand, have the Doctor correct it with a few lines of technobabble about the new egg somehow beaming in from another dimension to take the place of the old. Still ridiculous, but not as ridiculous. Even more crucially, DO NOT HAVE THEM STANDING ON A FUCKING BEACH A FEW METRES AWAY FROM THE TIDE WHILE THE MOON VANISHES AND REAPPEARS WITH NO PHYSICAL CONSEQUENCES WHATSOEVER. There are probably other issues I'm forgetting, but I can't be arsed watching this thing again.

Back in 2014, I was still blissfully ignorant about how far-reaching the SJW phenomenon was, but the agenda is painfully evident in retrospect. The cowardly, inept, cannon fodder male astronauts led by a vastly superior female captain. The Doctor's completely out of character abandonment of his companions, contrived to ensure that only the women remained on the moon and to provide a pretext for Clara's outburst at the end of the episode. Not quite plumbing the depths of the Chibnall era, but definitely moving in that direction. Its handling of the "dilemma" is far from subtle or morally ambiguous. Just listen to the menacing musical cues when the captain suggests killing the creature. That's what you call "provoking debate", Harness? Did anyone seriously imagine - even for a second - that any outcome other than letting it live would turn out to be the "correct" option?

I absolutely loathe the character of Courtney Woods too. Like Angie and Artie before her, it's obvious that she's only there as an excuse for Moffat to take his lingering resentment from his time as a schoolteacher out on his young audience, which I find pretty disgusting. I also feel sorry for the young actors who I imagine were probably in awe of being on the show, but were forced to play soulless, unimaginative dimwits who'd rather not be there because a certain writer felt entitled to use the show as a stage to act out his own personal psychodrama.

14Kill the Moon Empty Re: Kill the Moon 10th September 2019, 2:20 pm

stengos

stengos

3

Starts well - i..e base under siege story. The goes silly i.e. moons an egg and then the idea of holding a referendum of the entire planet.

This is (one reason) why Moffat is a dick.

IMHO.



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