Worst New Who Cybermen story

I’ve been pondering of late how much New Who has completely fucked the Cybermen over from the beginning, and how much RTD and Moffat have misunderstood the survival concept behind the original Cybermen conceptualised by Kit Pedler in favour of a dumbed down robotic version. What would you guys say is the worst New Who Cybermen story in terms of how they were treated?

Nightmare in Silver.

Clara being more irritating than usual (especially the fake rivalry with (I think) a military officer), the Doctor's split personality scenes, Warwick Davis' risible acting (especially when he tries to propose to Clara) and the kids in it.

I find it hard to believe Gaiman wrote this. Was it by any chance largely rewritten by the Superbeing that is Steven Moffat?

stengos wrote:Nightmare in Silver.

Clara being more irritating than usual (especially the fake rivalry with (I think) a military officer), the Doctor's split personality scenes, Warwick Davis' risible acting (especially when he tries to propose to Clara) and the kids in it.

I find it hard to believe Gaiman wrote this. Was it by any chance largely rewritten by the Superbeing that is Steven Moffat?

Yeah, apparently, Moffat heavily rewrote the script, as Gaiman wanted to do a two-parter, and actually focus more on the body horror aspects of the Cybermen, and less on the overpowered elements. In fact, Gaiman was so mad about the changes to his script that this may be the sole reason why he's never written another Who story again. For what it's worth, I actually feel bad for Gaiman and his brilliant mind was utterly wasted under Moffat's incompetence by this point. Luckily, this is the only true dud from his career, as the rest of his written stuff is great, even his work on The Doctor's Wife.

I think it almost certainly was. I utterly loathe Nightmare in Silver, but enjoy Gaiman, and it has that Moffat trademark of utterly ruining classic series creations by making them look moronic as all hell (the Cybermen run and fly like fucking Iron Man- no trace of humanity in them at all, and they just look fucking dumb). And it also features arguably Matt Smith’s worst performance- he’s painful to watch during the split personality scenes. And this is coming from someone who generally rather likes Smith in the role (he’s aeons better than the other New Who Doctors).

Thank you both for the replies.

Matt Smith was himself generally very good in the role. But not in this one.

I still haven’t voted yet, actually. I’m pondering on whether to go for Nightmare in Silver or Death In Heaven.

I had the same dilemna. Both of them were incredibly frustrating. On their own I thought "Nightmare" was far worse. But in terms of its impact if you like on the series as a whole you could argue Death in Heaven was worse - Missy and the implications for the whole Time Lord gender switching thing; Missy flirting with the Doctor; President of Earth; the Clara-Danny love story; the "love conquers all - including cyber conditioning" - thing. Is the process really that ineffectual?; flying-fuckin'-cybermen; the murder of that Unit Girl on the plane; the, to me, apparrent perversion of the cyber conversion process which was much better and sensibly dealt with by RTD in "Rise" and "Age"; the Cyber-Brig thing. Ignore Nicholas Courtney for 9 or so years and then do that to his character and in such a cheesy, corny way. It was like fan-fic written by an eight year old. And yet somehow Moffat is now a millionaire.

But no. I still dislike "Nightmare" more.

I agree with Nightmare in Silver.

I was still fairly favourable to the New Series around that point, whilst getting more into the Classic.

That episode must have been what pushed me over the edge. It was so shit in so many ways.

Name of the Doctor was relatively decent, and then the anniversaries revoked any interest I had. I watched Death in Heaven etc. once but fortunately I have no recollection of it, and the same onwards.

Dark Water/Death in Heaven is the worst story of all time. I have already picked it apart so many times now I don't think I need to again.

There is a thread somewhere where I post a mountain of text on how shit it is.

I'll just summise by saying that you can't be a DW fan and a Missy fan. Its as simple as that.

Its hard to pick out the most hateful thing about Pissy Missy, the pandering to SJWs, Moffat just casting his friend, the total disregard for the Masters past and character, her obnoxious fans like Jon Blum who shift the goal posts when defending her (one minute she's channelling Delgado, the next she's great because she is different and all change is good.)

I think at present though the single worst thing about Missy is the way she undermines the Doctors morality.

Why does he want to be friends with a mass murdering, psychopathic, monster anyway? Remember that episode of Red Dwarf where Kryten is appalled at the future Dwarfers for wanting to be friends with Hitler and Goerring? THAT is exactly what David Tennant and Peter Capaldi's Doctors come across as with their bullshit about "it would be my honour to travel with the Master."

As I've pointed out before the Doctor ends up sounding like the villains he used to stand against in the classic era when trying to justify being friends with Pissy, Kissy, Missy

Eric Saward wrote:DOCTOR: This carnage isn't necessary.
LEADER: It's survival, Doctor. Just as these primitives kill lesser species to protect themselves, so I kill them.
DOCTOR: That's hardly an argument.
LEADER: It's not supposed to be an argument. It's a statement!

Galaxy 4 wrote:RILL: To the Drahvins we are ugly, so they become frightened.
DOCTOR: You are different from us, of course, but at least you are intelligent.
STEVEN: Yes, what difference does it make what your form is?
DOCTOR: Importance lies in the character and to what use you put this intelligence. We respect you as we respect all life.

Pyramids of Mars wrote: SUTEKH: You are a Time Lord. What interest have you in humans?
DOCTOR: All sapient lifeforms are our kith, Sutekh.
SUTEKH: Horus held that view. I refute it.
DOCTOR: Because you fear that other intelligent lifeforms may grow to rival you in power, so you kill all life wherever you find it.
SUTEKH: Your argument is a cloud, but I see through it into your mind. The human girl. Ah, she travels with you.

Useless Third Rate Hack wrote:
BILL: She's a murderer.
DOCTOR: Enjoying your bacon sandwich?
BILL: Why?
DOCTOR: Because it had a mummy and a daddy. Go tell a pig about your moral high ground

Nice to see the Doctor compares Nyssa's father, step mother, Teegan's aunt, Osgood, all of Atlantis, millions of innocent people on Gallifrey, the Sea Devils, Bruce and his wife, Kara, and the entire planets of Traken and Logopolis to a bacon sandwhich!

Anyone who likes a character that does that to the hero, whilst pandering to the most hateful audience, who wrecks the history of the shows biggest villain and whose casting is a result of nepotism is not a fan of the show. Its as simple as that.

And on that note, I have duly voted for Death In Heaven.

I don't remember the Cybermen doing much in Death in Heaven. The design of them in the Moffat era is absolutely pitiful.

burrunjor wrote:Dark Water/Death in Heaven is the worst story of all time. I have already picked it apart so many times now I don't think I need to again.

There is a thread somewhere where I post a mountain of text on how shit it is.

I'll just summise by saying that you can't be a DW fan and a Missy fan. Its as simple as that.

Its hard to pick out the most hateful thing about Pissy Missy, the pandering to SJWs, Moffat just casting his friend, the total disregard for the Masters past and character, her obnoxious fans like Jon Blum who shift the goal posts when defending her (one minute she's channelling Delgado, the next she's great because she is different and all change is good.)

I think at present though the single worst thing about Missy is the way she undermines the Doctors morality.

Why does he want to be friends with a mass murdering, psychopathic, monster anyway? Remember that episode of Red Dwarf where Kryten is appalled at the future Dwarfers for wanting to be friends with Hitler and Goerring? THAT is exactly what David Tennant and Peter Capaldi's Doctors come across as with their bullshit about "it would be my honour to travel with the Master."

As I've pointed out before the Doctor ends up sounding like the villains he used to stand against in the classic era when trying to justify being friends with Pissy, Kissy, Missy

Eric Saward wrote:DOCTOR: This carnage isn't necessary.
LEADER: It's survival, Doctor. Just as these primitives kill lesser species to protect themselves, so I kill them.
DOCTOR: That's hardly an argument.
LEADER: It's not supposed to be an argument. It's a statement!

Galaxy 4 wrote:RILL: To the Drahvins we are ugly, so they become frightened.
DOCTOR: You are different from us, of course, but at least you are intelligent.
STEVEN: Yes, what difference does it make what your form is?
DOCTOR: Importance lies in the character and to what use you put this intelligence. We respect you as we respect all life.

Pyramids of Mars wrote: SUTEKH: You are a Time Lord. What interest have you in humans?
DOCTOR: All sapient lifeforms are our kith, Sutekh.
SUTEKH: Horus held that view. I refute it.
DOCTOR: Because you fear that other intelligent lifeforms may grow to rival you in power, so you kill all life wherever you find it.
SUTEKH: Your argument is a cloud, but I see through it into your mind. The human girl. Ah, she travels with you.

Useless Third Rate Hack wrote:
BILL: She's a murderer.
DOCTOR: Enjoying your bacon sandwich?
BILL: Why?
DOCTOR: Because it had a mummy and a daddy. Go tell a pig about your moral high ground

Nice to see the Doctor compares Nyssa's father, step mother, Teegan's aunt, Osgood, all of Atlantis, millions of innocent people on Gallifrey, the Sea Devils, Bruce and his wife, Kara, and the entire planets of Traken and Logopolis to a bacon sandwhich!

Anyone who likes a character that does that to the hero, whilst pandering to the most hateful audience, who wrecks the history of the shows biggest villain and whose casting is a result of nepotism is not a fan of the show. Its as simple as that.

I don't disagree with anything you say here. As with all your posts it is a fascinating read and you pick up on so many things that i miss or can't articulate but inwardly agree with. I was genuinely looking forward to your post on this thread - no sarcasm intended. And it was worth the wait.

However, as two separate pieces of 45-60 minute tv, "Death" is far more bearable than "Nightmare". With "Death" I can at least last until the end of the episode. I moan and grunt constantly, shout expletives at the screen, threaten it with violence, splutter my evening meal all over the living room as i bear witness to Moffat's latest inanity. However, with "Nightmare" I can't do any of that because I am likely to stop watching after 10 minutes. It is just fundamentally unbearable. As Maxil once said "you can't polish a turd" and "Nightmare" is one stinking great turd. With "Death" you at least have a lead who turns in a good performance, nice sfx and, arguably, decent performances from Jenna Coleman and Samuel Coleman. I just don't like the material they have to deal with.

Were "Nightmare" not in the mix i have no doubt that "Death" would top this poll for me. Unfortunately it is.

stengos wrote:

burrunjor wrote:Dark Water/Death in Heaven is the worst story of all time. I have already picked it apart so many times now I don't think I need to again.

There is a thread somewhere where I post a mountain of text on how shit it is.

I'll just summise by saying that you can't be a DW fan and a Missy fan. Its as simple as that.

Its hard to pick out the most hateful thing about Pissy Missy, the pandering to SJWs, Moffat just casting his friend, the total disregard for the Masters past and character, her obnoxious fans like Jon Blum who shift the goal posts when defending her (one minute she's channelling Delgado, the next she's great because she is different and all change is good.)

I think at present though the single worst thing about Missy is the way she undermines the Doctors morality.

Why does he want to be friends with a mass murdering, psychopathic, monster anyway? Remember that episode of Red Dwarf where Kryten is appalled at the future Dwarfers for wanting to be friends with Hitler and Goerring? THAT is exactly what David Tennant and Peter Capaldi's Doctors come across as with their bullshit about "it would be my honour to travel with the Master."

As I've pointed out before the Doctor ends up sounding like the villains he used to stand against in the classic era when trying to justify being friends with Pissy, Kissy, Missy

Eric Saward wrote:DOCTOR: This carnage isn't necessary.
LEADER: It's survival, Doctor. Just as these primitives kill lesser species to protect themselves, so I kill them.
DOCTOR: That's hardly an argument.
LEADER: It's not supposed to be an argument. It's a statement!

Galaxy 4 wrote:RILL: To the Drahvins we are ugly, so they become frightened.
DOCTOR: You are different from us, of course, but at least you are intelligent.
STEVEN: Yes, what difference does it make what your form is?
DOCTOR: Importance lies in the character and to what use you put this intelligence. We respect you as we respect all life.

Pyramids of Mars wrote: SUTEKH: You are a Time Lord. What interest have you in humans?
DOCTOR: All sapient lifeforms are our kith, Sutekh.
SUTEKH: Horus held that view. I refute it.
DOCTOR: Because you fear that other intelligent lifeforms may grow to rival you in power, so you kill all life wherever you find it.
SUTEKH: Your argument is a cloud, but I see through it into your mind. The human girl. Ah, she travels with you.

Useless Third Rate Hack wrote:
BILL: She's a murderer.
DOCTOR: Enjoying your bacon sandwich?
BILL: Why?
DOCTOR: Because it had a mummy and a daddy. Go tell a pig about your moral high ground

Nice to see the Doctor compares Nyssa's father, step mother, Teegan's aunt, Osgood, all of Atlantis, millions of innocent people on Gallifrey, the Sea Devils, Bruce and his wife, Kara, and the entire planets of Traken and Logopolis to a bacon sandwhich!

Anyone who likes a character that does that to the hero, whilst pandering to the most hateful audience, who wrecks the history of the shows biggest villain and whose casting is a result of nepotism is not a fan of the show. Its as simple as that.

I don't disagree with anything you say here. As with all your posts it is a fascinating read and you pick up on so many things that i miss or can't articulate but inwardly agree with. I was genuinely looking forward to your post on this thread - no sarcasm intended. And it was worth the wait.

However, as two separate pieces of 45-60 minute tv, "Death" is far more bearable than "Nightmare". With "Death" I can at least last until the end of the episode. I moan and grunt constantly, shout expletives at the screen, threaten it with violence, splutter my evening meal all over the living room as i bear witness to Moffat's latest inanity. However, with "Nightmare" I can't do any of that because I am likely to stop watching after 10 minutes. It is just fundamentally unbearable. As Maxil once said "you can't polish a turd" and "Nightmare" is one stinking great turd. With "Death" you at least have a lead who turns in a good performance, nice sfx and, arguably, decent performances from Jenna Coleman and Samuel Coleman. I just don't like the material they have to deal with.

Were "Nightmare" not in the mix i have no doubt that "Death" would top this poll for me. Unfortunately it is.

Thanks for the kind words, means a lot. Death in Heaven I will say has the gem of a good idea in it. The idea of a virtual afterlife is inspired (though not completely original.) Still ultimately its just completely ditched for what is even by new who standards a bog standard plot. Cybermen invading earth again!

Its almost a rehash of Doomsday in a way, people think the dead are still alive, the Cybermen are behind it, but then there is a villain behind the Cybermen.

Aside from World, they're ALL shit.

burrunjor wrote:

stengos wrote:

burrunjor wrote:Dark Water/Death in Heaven is the worst story of all time. I have already picked it apart so many times now I don't think I need to again.

There is a thread somewhere where I post a mountain of text on how shit it is.

I'll just summise by saying that you can't be a DW fan and a Missy fan. Its as simple as that.

Its hard to pick out the most hateful thing about Pissy Missy, the pandering to SJWs, Moffat just casting his friend, the total disregard for the Masters past and character, her obnoxious fans like Jon Blum who shift the goal posts when defending her (one minute she's channelling Delgado, the next she's great because she is different and all change is good.)

I think at present though the single worst thing about Missy is the way she undermines the Doctors morality.

Why does he want to be friends with a mass murdering, psychopathic, monster anyway? Remember that episode of Red Dwarf where Kryten is appalled at the future Dwarfers for wanting to be friends with Hitler and Goerring? THAT is exactly what David Tennant and Peter Capaldi's Doctors come across as with their bullshit about "it would be my honour to travel with the Master."

As I've pointed out before the Doctor ends up sounding like the villains he used to stand against in the classic era when trying to justify being friends with Pissy, Kissy, Missy

Eric Saward wrote:DOCTOR: This carnage isn't necessary.
LEADER: It's survival, Doctor. Just as these primitives kill lesser species to protect themselves, so I kill them.
DOCTOR: That's hardly an argument.
LEADER: It's not supposed to be an argument. It's a statement!

Galaxy 4 wrote:RILL: To the Drahvins we are ugly, so they become frightened.
DOCTOR: You are different from us, of course, but at least you are intelligent.
STEVEN: Yes, what difference does it make what your form is?
DOCTOR: Importance lies in the character and to what use you put this intelligence. We respect you as we respect all life.

Pyramids of Mars wrote: SUTEKH: You are a Time Lord. What interest have you in humans?
DOCTOR: All sapient lifeforms are our kith, Sutekh.
SUTEKH: Horus held that view. I refute it.
DOCTOR: Because you fear that other intelligent lifeforms may grow to rival you in power, so you kill all life wherever you find it.
SUTEKH: Your argument is a cloud, but I see through it into your mind. The human girl. Ah, she travels with you.

Useless Third Rate Hack wrote:
BILL: She's a murderer.
DOCTOR: Enjoying your bacon sandwich?
BILL: Why?
DOCTOR: Because it had a mummy and a daddy. Go tell a pig about your moral high ground

Nice to see the Doctor compares Nyssa's father, step mother, Teegan's aunt, Osgood, all of Atlantis, millions of innocent people on Gallifrey, the Sea Devils, Bruce and his wife, Kara, and the entire planets of Traken and Logopolis to a bacon sandwhich!

Anyone who likes a character that does that to the hero, whilst pandering to the most hateful audience, who wrecks the history of the shows biggest villain and whose casting is a result of nepotism is not a fan of the show. Its as simple as that.

I don't disagree with anything you say here. As with all your posts it is a fascinating read and you pick up on so many things that i miss or can't articulate but inwardly agree with. I was genuinely looking forward to your post on this thread - no sarcasm intended. And it was worth the wait.

However, as two separate pieces of 45-60 minute tv, "Death" is far more bearable than "Nightmare". With "Death" I can at least last until the end of the episode. I moan and grunt constantly, shout expletives at the screen, threaten it with violence, splutter my evening meal all over the living room as i bear witness to Moffat's latest inanity. However, with "Nightmare" I can't do any of that because I am likely to stop watching after 10 minutes. It is just fundamentally unbearable. As Maxil once said "you can't polish a turd" and "Nightmare" is one stinking great turd. With "Death" you at least have a lead who turns in a good performance, nice sfx and, arguably, decent performances from Jenna Coleman and Samuel Coleman. I just don't like the material they have to deal with.

Were "Nightmare" not in the mix i have no doubt that "Death" would top this poll for me. Unfortunately it is.

Thanks for the kind words, means a lot. Death in Heaven I will say has the gem of a good idea in it. The idea of a virtual afterlife is inspired (though not completely original.) Still ultimately its just completely ditched for what is even by new who standards a bog standard plot. Cybermen invading earth again!

Its almost a rehash of Doomsday in a way, people think the dead are still alive, the Cybermen are behind it, but then there is a villain behind the Cybermen.

I concur with Stengos on your responses- you have an intimate knowledge and understanding of the programme and the failures of New Who to an extent I could only dream of. To be honest, I’ve not re-watched Death In Heaven in full since broadcast, so most of the intricacies of its sheer shiteness aren’t clear to me, but both the character of Missy and the Cyber Brig still stand out as moments that I inherently loathe for the reasons you propose. I leaned towards Nightmare in Silver due to re-watching it a few months back and being shocked at its ineptitude, but I’m dreading ever going back to watch Death In Heaven.

iank wrote:Aside from World, they're ALL shit.

Damn right.

I voted Nightmare in Silver.

Although Dark Water/Death in Heaven was a worse experience and did more to kill my interest in the show, I barely think of it as a Cyberman story at all. Whereas Nightmare In Silver undeniably is one, and as such feels more like their worst outing. Not so much because the Cybermen are terribly mishandled, but more because I can't stand the human characters in it, and air of smugness, so I can't invest in what might've otherwise actually been an entertaining siege.

And I do think Nightmare in Silver got to me more because it was a bigger disappointment coming from Gaiman.

It probably is the case that Moffat tampered with his script, but I have to say I lost some respect for Gaiman and his sense of judgement when he listed Let's Kill Hitler as one of his favorite moments of the Matt Smith era.

burrunjor wrote:Dark Water/Death in Heaven is the worst story of all time.

I'd still say second-worst.

'Nightmare in Silver' - I became convinced that Matt Smith was the very worst actor to play the Doctor,  mostly because of those ridiculously bad scenes where he's possessed by the Cyber-Planner.  I've since moderated my views towards Smith but not towards this absolute stinker of an episode. A Radio Times review at the time called it 'An almighty Cyber-flop'.  Indeed.

I've only seen the first 3 on the list, So I had to vote for The Next Doctor.

I think Rise is one of the better New Series stories. I'd give it 3/10. lol

Death In Heaven swerved me voting it worst story in another poll. It's not getting away with it a second time!

I still can't believe that Moffat not only commissioned Closing Time, but actually managed to surpass it in terms of sheer awfulness not once, but twice, all while hiding World Enough and Time up his sleeve. Just... why?

He’s either the most schizophrenic writer in Who history, or a complete troll. To be honest, he’s certainly the latter after he commissioned Twice Upon a Time.

He didn't just commission it, he fucking really wrote the trash!

Yeah- I wasn’t entirely accurate in my terminology there. In all seriousness, TUAT (sounds aptly close to twat) is quite possibly the worst Who story ever conceived prior to series 11, as it only exists to desecrate the legacy of the original Doctor and does absolutely fuck all else, although Moffat had desecrated many aspects of Classic Who in a similar fashion in Death in Heaven, The Magician’s Apprentice and Hell Bent, so they’re all strong contenders as well.