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1Disappointed with Election Results Empty Disappointed with Election Results on Sun 26 May 2019, 11:48 pm

burrunjor

burrunjor
Sigh I can't believe Farage scooped up all of UKIP's support.

Now I don't like Carl Benjamin, though I wanted Tommy Robinson to win. Still it shows what morons people are. Carl whatever you think about him is not against the NHS. He also is for Welfare too.

Farage meanwhile is a right wing cunt. He wants to shut down the NHS and the Welfare state. Given they both are for Brexit, if you support Brexit you'd think that Carl would be the lesser of two evils.

This shows a genuine turn to the right. We're not talking honest criticism of Islam. This is the kind of right wing politics that will fuck up our future. Sad

2Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 12:36 am

Tanmann

Tanmann
Farage was always projected to win. So as much as it's a disappointment, it's not a surprise he did. Strange that he was always seen as such a national joke, and yet I guess enough people now thought he was no worse a joke than the two lead parties.

As for Tommy, as much as I don't like how he's been attacked and had the dogs sicced onto him by the media, I really don't think Tommy gets the game of politics, and he has corruptions of his own which I couldn't ignore and were reason enough for me not to vote for him. He's shielded at least one nonce creep in the EDL who is every bit as bad as the grooming gangs he raleighs against.

I voted Change UK in the end, as I wanted some kind of moderate Labour alternative to have a chance, but in hindsight I wish I'd voted Green. Would've been nice to have an environmentalist party working with the saner voices in the EU.

3Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 1:00 am

Cunnus Maximus

Cunnus Maximus
@burrunjor wrote:I wanted Tommy Robinson to win.

@burrunjor wrote:Farage meanwhile is a right wing cunt.

Disappointed with Election Results Giphy

4Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 2:40 am

ClockworkOcean

ClockworkOcean
Dick Tater
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this one.

UKIP under Farage at least championed the sort of constitutional reforms one would expect from a party sincerely concerned about the EU's democratic deficit, campaigning for proportional representation, the abolition of the House of Lords and a devolved English Parliament. Are you aware that under Batten, it's now official party policy scrap the devolved administrations and centralise all power to Westminster? Yes, the very same people who can't stop waxing lyrical about democracy, sovereignty, and the will of the people are simultaneously campaigning for the total eradication of local democracy in the devolved nations! Carl Benjamin was perfectly happy to stand on that platform, and has a sordid history of leaping to the defence of obscenely anti-democratic electoral systems like the EC and FPTP when politically expedient to the right.

The only legitimate case for brexit comes from a principled opposition to the EU's insufficiently democratic power structure. If that doesn't motivate UKIP, then what does? The only possibility I can see besides plain old racism and xenophobia is a desire for sweeping tax cuts and deregulation.

I'm certainly not happy about Farage's victory, but in no way whatsoever would UKIP have been preferable.

5Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 8:39 am

burrunjor

burrunjor
Boofer wrote:
@burrunjor wrote:I wanted Tommy Robinson to win.

@burrunjor wrote:Farage meanwhile is a right wing cunt.

Disappointed with Election Results Giphy

Oh god not this again. Sigh, Tommy is not right wing. He is not for any right wing positions like taking down the NHS, the Welfare State, etc.

He is critical of Islam a religion. Does that stand for right wing these days? Is Sam Harris right wing?



People should be grateful that its people like him who lead the criticism against Islam as opposed to actual racists, which is what will happen soon. Now that Tommy is finished, someone will step up to take his place. The race realists are waiting in the wings.

That's the funny thing, Tommy and Sargon are actually all for genuinely left wing positions, gay marriage, NHS, Welfare, renationalising resources like gas and electricity.

Nigel Farage meanwhile wants to take down the NHS and Welfare. He's a cunt who looks down on the poor and the disabled of this country. His comments about Tommy are proof of that. Farage has said that Tommy's comments about Islam are unforgivable. He made exactly the same comments.

In fact Nigel's remarks about Islam are WORSE. Tommy has talked about reforming the faith. Farage meanwhile has grouped them all together in that poster as just being brown people. Also he wants to ban the hijab whilst Tommy doesn't. Yet Farage looks down on Tommy because he's working class, is quite happy to let poor people die because they can't afford healthcare, and he wants to take away safety nets for people for the vulnerable in this country.



Yet Farage was the one who got in? Just goes to show

6Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 8:58 am

burrunjor

burrunjor
@ClockworkOcean wrote:I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this one.

UKIP under Farage at least championed the sort of constitutional reforms one would expect from a party sincerely concerned about the EU's democratic deficit, campaigning for proportional representation, the abolition of the House of Lords and a devolved English Parliament. Are you aware that under Batten, it's now official party policy scrap the devolved administrations and centralise all power to Westminster? Yes, the very same people who can't stop waxing lyrical about democracy, sovereignty, and the will of the people are simultaneously campaigning for the total eradication of local democracy in the devolved nations! Carl Benjamin was perfectly happy to stand on that platform, and has a sordid history of leaping to the defence of obscenely anti-democratic electoral systems like the EC and FPTP when politically expedient to the right.

The only legitimate case for brexit comes from a principled opposition to the EU's insufficiently democratic power structure. If that doesn't motivate UKIP, then what does? The only possibility I can see besides plain old racism and xenophobia is a desire for sweeping tax cuts and deregulation.

I'm certainly not happy about Farage's victory, but in no way whatsoever would UKIP have been preferable.

Well Sargon is still more genuinely left than Farage and has at least always maintained those positions despite his flip flopping on other issues. Not saying I desperately wanted UKIP to win, but IMO he was the lesser of two evils. but I'm not devastated or anything about Sargon's loss. It just worries me to see more attacks against the NHS.

Still Sargon is absolutely finished now, not that I care as he is a total wanker (he just happens to be less of a wanker than Farage.) TBH it was the stupidest decision he ever made. You can't have a history of shit posting and expect the mainstream media aren't going to use that against you when running a campaign.

Even then though it pisses me off to see HIGNFY act all high and mighty about how much they hate his comments. Yeah his comments were nasty and pathetic, but no more so than ones made on their show, or ones made by guests on their shows. I guess if Sargon had said he wanted Jordan to have sex with her blind child like their frequent host Frankie Boyle then it would have been better?

7Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 9:02 am

stengos

stengos
@burrunjor wrote:Sigh I can't believe Farage scooped up all of UKIP's support.

Now I don't like Carl Benjamin, though I wanted Tommy Robinson to win. Still it shows what morons people are. Carl whatever you think about him is not against the NHS. He also is for Welfare too.

Farage meanwhile is a right wing cunt. He wants to shut down the NHS and the Welfare state. Given they both are for Brexit, if you support Brexit you'd think that Carl would be the lesser of two evils.

This shows a genuine turn to the right. We're not talking honest criticism of Islam. This is the kind of right wing politics that will fuck up our future. Sad

This was surely a one-issue election, the prime (if not only) focus being on exiting the EU. I could be wrong but I should imagine the vast majority of his supporters in this poll don't even realise what Farage's position on the NHS is. I don't think the Brexit Party even produced a manifesto so how would his voters know his stance on the Health Service?

As for Carl Benjamin - he just didn't have the high profile that Farage had. Farage got numerous tv appearances during the campaign and has his LBC phone-in programme. The latter also gets video and national coverage thru YouTube.

The BBC also played Nigel wrong. Their overtly style hostile approach to him in interviews and on programmes like Question Time simply generates sympathy and support for the guy. At the same time that hostility does not seem to be mirrored when they interview his opponents. It just doesn't seem balanced. That particularly rankles me even though I don't support the chap. The BBC may tell us on their website that we can trust BBC news but at the same time it seems to sneer at the very people who constitute his potential supporters.

Its incredible (and unfortunate) how well Farage did. His new party virtually came from nowhere in just a few weeks and had much of the media set against him. But then its interesting to note how the greens did - 12% of the popular vote compared to 14% for Labour. And then there is the sudden improvement in the Lib Dem vote which now stands at 20% - more than double that of the Conservatives (9% I think).

Its also deeply satisfying that Anna Soubry and Heidi Allen got buried in the election - 3.4% of the vote and diddly squat for seats. That makes the world good in my eyes. Some of it anyway.

Very Happy

8Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 9:10 am

burrunjor

burrunjor
@Tanmann wrote:Farage was always projected to win. So as much as it's a disappointment, it's not a surprise he did. Strange that he was always seen as such a national joke, and yet I guess enough people now thought he was no worse a joke than the two lead parties.

As for Tommy, as much as I don't like how he's been attacked and had the dogs sicced onto him by the media, I really don't think Tommy gets the game of politics, and he has corruptions of his own which I couldn't ignore and were reason enough for me not to vote for him. He's shielded at least one nonce creep in the EDL who is every bit as bad as the grooming gangs he raleighs against.

I voted Change UK in the end, as I wanted some kind of moderate Labour alternative to have a chance, but in hindsight I wish I'd voted Green. Would've been nice to have an environmentalist party working with the saner voices in the EU.

I'm surprised to see you dislike Tommy? There have been two nonces in the EDL, one Tommy thought was innocent at first, but then when he found out he wasn't he made no attempt to shield him, cut all ties with him, and said that he was a monster. Okay he called it wrong at first, but people make mistakes in cases like that (particularly when they are dealing with someone they know.) The second was discovered long after he had quit and was disavowed from the party right away.

TBH though it probably would be better if Tommy stepped away from this for a bit. His message is a good one.

Sadly with the left who think terrorism has nothing to do with Islam and the Earthling Carl's on the other side who ARE racists who believe in race realism and want to kick all Muslims out of the country; a moderate voice in the middle who wants Islam reformed, for the religion to be criticised as much as other faiths like Christianity and Sociology, but for not all Muslims to be demonised and tarred as evil and for the race of any Muslim not brought into the discussion is needed more than ever to stop violence between both sides.

However that voice can't be Tommy. He clearly has no support and therefore will damage anything he's attached too, he's too easy to demonise due to his admittedly thuggish past, and yeah some of the people he's been forced to associate with to be heard are unsavoury too.

Not saying he should go away for good, but IMO they need a new for want of a better term figure head.

9Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 9:14 am

burrunjor

burrunjor
@stengos wrote:
@burrunjor wrote:Sigh I can't believe Farage scooped up all of UKIP's support.

Now I don't like Carl Benjamin, though I wanted Tommy Robinson to win. Still it shows what morons people are. Carl whatever you think about him is not against the NHS. He also is for Welfare too.

Farage meanwhile is a right wing cunt. He wants to shut down the NHS and the Welfare state. Given they both are for Brexit, if you support Brexit you'd think that Carl would be the lesser of two evils.

This shows a genuine turn to the right. We're not talking honest criticism of Islam. This is the kind of right wing politics that will fuck up our future. Sad

This was surely a one-issue election, the prime (if not only) focus being on exiting the EU. I could be wrong but I should imagine the vast majority of his supporters in this poll don't even realise what Farage's position on the NHS is. I don't think the Brexit Party even produced a manifesto so how would his voters know his stance on the Health Service?

As for Carl Benjamin - he just didn't have the high profile that Farage had. Farage got numerous tv appearances during the campaign and has his LBC phone-in programme. The latter also gets video and national coverage thru YouTube.

The BBC also played Nigel wrong. Their overtly style hostile approach to him in interviews and on programmes like Question Time simply generates sympathy and support for the guy. At the same time that hostility does not seem to be mirrored when they interview his opponents. It just doesn't seem balanced. That particularly rankles me even though I don't support the chap. The BBC may tell us on their website that we can trust BBC news but at the same time it seems to sneer at the very people who constitute his potential supporters.

Its incredible (and unfortunate) how well Farage did. His new party virtually came from nowhere in just a few weeks and had much of the media set against him. But then its interesting to note how the greens did - 12% of the popular vote compared to 14% for Labour. And then there is the sudden improvement in the Lib Dem vote which now stands at 20% - more than double that of the Conservatives (9% I think).

Its also deeply satisfying that Anna Soubry and Heidi Allen got buried in the election - 3.4% of the vote and diddly squat for seats. That makes the world good in my eyes. Some of it anyway.

Very Happy


Yeah I suppose you're right. I don't want to do a Stephen King and demonise all people who voted for someone I don't like as the one thing. Look at this smug, obnoxious article he did about Trump supporters.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi136ryobviAhW3URUIHRY4A0cQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fus-news%2F2017%2Fapr%2F01%2Fstephen-king-on-donald-trump-fictional-voters-truth-about-us-election&usg=AOvVaw3iJNsx5E7gk9Z6xrs9xPbc

Still his victory is depressing.

10Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 10:28 am

TiberiusDidNothingWrong

TiberiusDidNothingWrong
Dick Tater
Why?

This was a vote on issue, which is honestly a far more preferable and reasoned form of voting than the typical 'loyalty' base. When it comes to the EU there's only one issue worth thinking about right now.

They effectively have a choice between:

1 - A party that wants to reverse brexit, which is quite problematic insofar as what is constitutional or even practical at this stage - regardless of debates as to the cost/benefit of leaving the EU.

2 - More likely, a party that has no clear idea of how they are to handle the brexit process. A party that will dither and bring all the problems associated.

3 - A party that will actually push to deliver what people voted for. Even if you didn't vote for it - we're in this process and it's much more reasonable to want it completed than to expect it to be reversed.

Let's not play the 'association' game. It doesn't matter who's in the party, only what they'll do. Personality politics is a nadir.

11Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 11:10 am

Tanmann

Tanmann
@burrunjor wrote:I'm surprised to see you dislike Tommy? There have been two nonces in the EDL, one Tommy thought was innocent at first, but then when he found out he wasn't he made no attempt to shield him, cut all ties with him, and said that he was a monster. Okay he called it wrong at first, but people make mistakes in cases like that (particularly when they are dealing with someone they know.) The second was discovered long after he had quit and was disavowed from the party right away.

It's not that I don't like Tommy. But I felt I needed to be reasonably cautious about if I think and trust he's the right man to be given that power and that role, and the realist in me said 'no'. Anne Marie Waters is someone I would've trusted and got behind.

I might have to look more into that case with the EDL nonces. Maybe Tommy is telling the truth that he didn't know and denounced him as soon as he did, but I don't believe Tommy is quite as saintly in things as he often makes out. That's just my gut instinct.

12Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 11:27 am

stengos

stengos
For me Brexit is about one question: leaving or staying in the EU, extricating us or not from both the economic and political framework of that organisation because of a belief it undermines UK sovereignty and the work of Parliament.

What the various protagonists think about the NHS, Welfare, Education, Workers rights is secondary at this point - and a very distant second. One brexiteer can fully support the whole panoply of workers rights and the NHS while another can be calling for the privatisation of the latter and the revocation of the former thus leaving workers vulnerable to the vagaries of the market. What happens in those areas would be determined by subsequent elections to Westminster.

Which is why I don't quite understand why Farage's personality or preference for this or that domestic policy should be much of an issue. If I were a secessionist on this issue I would support him and once he had achieved that objective I would then vote for "any of the above (but not him)" in the subsequent General Elections depending on their manifestos.

I appreciate this may be naïve but that is how I make sense of the current situation.

13Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 11:36 am

burrunjor

burrunjor
@Tanmann wrote:
@burrunjor wrote:I'm surprised to see you dislike Tommy? There have been two nonces in the EDL, one Tommy thought was innocent at first, but then when he found out he wasn't he made no attempt to shield him, cut all ties with him, and said that he was a monster. Okay he called it wrong at first, but people make mistakes in cases like that (particularly when they are dealing with someone they know.) The second was discovered long after he had quit and was disavowed from the party right away.

It's not that I don't like Tommy. But I felt I needed to be reasonably cautious about if I think and trust he's the right man to be given that power and that role, and the realist in me said 'no'. Anne Marie Waters is someone I would've trusted and got behind.

I might have to look more into that case with the EDL nonces. Maybe Tommy is telling the truth that he didn't know and denounced him as soon as he did, but I don't believe Tommy is quite as saintly in things as he often makes out. That's just my gut instinct.

Well fair enough if you think he just has poor judgement. (If you think he's a total cunt that would be fair enough too LOL. I don't want people to think I follow a cult of personality around Tommy. I just agree with him on a lot of things, but obviously everyone should say what they think about him here.)

I don't think he can be said to condone abuse however. The guy was a pervert in his private life and was arrested. Tommy thought he was innocent and then found out he wasn't and denounced him from the party. As you say it shows that his judgement is not always be great that he trusted this person at one point, but that's not the same thing.

I don't think Tommy has ever pretended he was a saint. He has admitted to being a total ignorant thug in his youth and a wide boy. He can sometimes tyr too hard not to be seen as a racist, but that's only because he is smeared as a Nazi so often.

Whatever the case the election shows he does not have the support he thought he did. This was a George Galloway 2015 election level of humiliating defeat. I'd obviously be happy to hear Tommy's opinions on things, watch more docu's he's done and read his books, but in terms of his chances of getting elected he's clearly seen as too toxic by the mainstream public for whatever reason.

14Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 11:39 am

Tanmann

Tanmann
Which is why I don't quite understand why Farage's personality or preference for this or that domestic policy should be much of an issue. If I were a secessionist on this issue I would support him and once he had achieved that objective I would then vote for "any of the above (but not him)" in the subsequent General Elections depending on their manifestos.

I think the worry is possibly that this victory will get Farage's party more seats in constituencies that previously never even used to have an option on their ballots for going that far right.

This is the first time I've even had the option to vote UKIP where I live.

And I think what Burrun is getting at is that if Farage's Brexit party replaces UKIP as the only available option in most regions for being a bullwark against the EU, mass immigration and sinister Islamist agendas, then we're going to get all the shit "don't work, don't eat" policies of Farage with it that we possibly wouldn't have got under UKIP

15Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 11:50 am

Tanmann

Tanmann
@burrunjor wrote:Sadly with the left who think terrorism has nothing to do with Islam and the Earthling Carl's on the other side who ARE racists who believe in race realism and want to kick all Muslims out of the country; a moderate voice in the middle who wants Islam reformed, for the religion to be criticised as much as other faiths like Christianity and Sociology, but for not all Muslims to be demonised and tarred as evil and for the race of any Muslim not brought into the discussion is needed more than ever to stop violence between both sides.

Sara Khan is a Muslim woman who's part of a group called Prevent, which aims to intervene and nip radicalization in the bud when it seems young Muslims are showing signs of Jihadist sympathies.

Even her group has been attacked and sabotaged by leftists for being racist, Islamophobic and proof of a racist surveillance state creep. When I learned about that I got genuinely mad that the ultra-left would genuinely put the rest of us (not to mention the people of Iraq and Syria who've suffered to ISIS's swelled ranks too) at more risk of further terrorism and killing, for the sake of being 'politically correct'. So yes, it seems much the left don't want that reform to be possible.

Infact I'm just going to say it. I've suspected it as much ever since 9/11 happened and I saw most of the left's attitude to the attacks was frankly sociopathic.... but from having read Peter Neumann's Radicalized, the left has had its own history of resorting to terrorist tactics against the state and the bourgeois. It was a long time ago and that phase did blow over and die down (hopefully the same will happen with Islam), but I really do think the spirit of those dark days, and the unreasonable terrorist ideation itself has stayed with the mob-minded left since, to this very day. Hence the willingness to be apologists for today's terrorists.



Last edited by Tanmann on Mon 27 May 2019, 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

16Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 1:00 pm

Cunnus Maximus

Cunnus Maximus
@burrunjor wrote:
Boofer wrote:
@burrunjor wrote:I wanted Tommy Robinson to win.

@burrunjor wrote:Farage meanwhile is a right wing cunt.

Disappointed with Election Results Giphy

Oh god not this again. Sigh, Tommy is not right wing. He is not for any right wing positions like taking down the NHS, the Welfare State, etc.


Disappointed with Election Results Giphy

I'm surprised you're still yet to grasp the distinction between far-right fascistic populist posturing and 'othering', and right-wing economic liberalism i.e. the economics of the Chicago school, Milton Friedman, etc.

For example, the BNP support NHS and welfare state expansion. The far right are more interventionist and, to an extent, anti-globalist/neoliberal. The economic right are laissez-faire economic liberals.

In Farage's case, it's fair to say he traverses the gap between the two by espousing nationalistic, anti-migrant sentiments, while still holding dear the legacy of Thatcherism and Reaganomics. It's a hotchpotch; a sort of national economic liberalism.

So Tommy is far right, not on the Traditional right, and Farage has one toe in and one toe out of both ideologies.

We've been through all this before. Robinson is a detestable human being, and his views on Islam are grossly over-simplistic and reactionary. Posting videos of other ill-informed reactionaries doesn't change that, nor does implying he's some kind of 'classical liberal'. To blur the lines between your average Muslim and the vocal minority of Salafists/Wahabis is dangerous fare indeed, and Tommy is guilty-as-charged.

Which isn't the first time he's been found guilty of anything either. You only have to look at his rap sheet to see he's a jumped-up, diminuative thug and fraudster who squeezes huge amounts of money out of his followers and dubious funding sources in order to fund his very comfortable lifestyle.

Robinson is human excrement, and manifests very little real support among the general public. His supporters are very vocal, and it seems like there are more than there actually are.

I predict it won't be long before he's back in prison again for violence, fraud, or compromising legal proceedings.

17Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 1:18 pm

TiberiusDidNothingWrong

TiberiusDidNothingWrong
Dick Tater
Again, this highlights that 'left' and 'right' - at least at this wider level - are not meaningful terms. There is no common and consistent consensus as to what they actually mean across the broad genres they're attributing.

They're lines in a vague sand and nothing more.

Trying to argue the terms shows a misunderstanding of the nature of language.

18Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 1:54 pm

Cunnus Maximus

Cunnus Maximus
@TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote:Again, this highlights that 'left' and 'right' - at least at this wider level - are not meaningful terms. There is no common and consistent consensus as to what they actually mean across the broad genres they're attributing.

They're lines in a vague sand and nothing more.

Trying to argue the terms shows a misunderstanding of the nature of language.

There is a clear academic consensus on what these terms mean though.

Not sure what you mean by the last statement either. Just sounds like you're trying to make a clever point about semantics (and failing).

19Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 2:04 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Boofer wrote:There is a clear academic consensus on what these terms mean though.

And yet it's academia that's directly producing these SJW cultists who see racist patriarchy everywhere and don't seem to see anything with nuance.

20Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 2:17 pm

TiberiusDidNothingWrong

TiberiusDidNothingWrong
Dick Tater
Boofer wrote:

There is a clear academic consensus on what these terms mean though.

Not sure what you mean by the last statement either. Just sounds like you're trying to make a clever point about semantics (and failing).

Oh, please point me to the universally - at least within the limits of academia - accepted definition of 'left' and 'right' are beyond the bounds of the classical economic or social definitions.

And I would apologise - had I intended to write for those with less than competent reading comprehension - that I did not express that point in very basic English.

Yes, the whole post is about semantics and I figured that was obvious enough that I wouldn't have to signpost it.

A word has meaning within a context where that meaning is consistently understood within that context. These is no such consistent understanding with 'left' or 'right', even in an 'academic' context - much less in the common parlance that is rather more relevant insofar as politics. There is a general understanding of the terms - in academia - in various sub-categories of an ideology, and no obvious way to use the terms holistically.

21Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 3:03 pm

burrunjor

burrunjor
For example, the BNP support NHS and welfare state expansion. The far right are more interventionist and, to an extent, anti-globalist/neoliberal. The economic right are laissez-faire economic liberals.

The BNP are complete racists though. Having looked extensively through their videos and websites there is no denying that they despise Jews and dark skinned people. Incidently they despise Tommy Robinson for his support of the Jewish community.

In that case it doesn't matter what other positions they hold. To be fair though I don't even think that being racist should label you as far right as that is unfair to the right. There have been plenty of racists on the left. Plenty of homophobes too. Fidel Castro and Che were both homophobes for instance.

Personally I think issues like racism and homophobia are a spectrum on their own, though I understand why gay rights has fallen onto the left in the west, due to their support of gay marriage, though that wasn't always the case. Enoch Powell supported gay rights and he was very much on the right for instance. Still overall to me left and right are simplistic issues.

We've been through all this before. Robinson is a detestable human being, and his views on Islam are grossly over-simplistic and reactionary. Posting videos of other ill-informed reactionaries doesn't change that, nor does implying he's some kind of 'classical liberal'. To blur the lines between your average Muslim and the vocal minority of Salafists/Wahabis is dangerous fare indeed, and Tommy is guilty-as-charged.

No his views on Islam are not oversimplistic, you are oversimplyifing them.

He doesn't blur the lines between your average Muslim and the vocal minority of Salafists/Wahabis. Tommy has said that not all Muslims are violent. If you watch his vids you'll see he ends almost every video with that. He has said that he grew up with Muslims and there were never any problems with them, that several of them went to serve for the army.

Here Tommy talking with an actual Muslim reformer, hearing him out, giving him a platform and allowing him to let people know about the different schools of Islam.



Here Tommy clearing up when the media lied and said that Muslims would object to a statue of Lee Rigby being put up, by taking to the streets and interviewing Muslims.



Ironically HE was the one clearing up lies about Muslims which made them look bad.

Here he is having a civil conversation with a Muslim girl on the streets.



All Tommy has ever said is that Islam is a dangerous faith, and it is. He has said that its influence in the west needs limited (IE faith schools shut down, any mosques found guilty of funding terrorism be shut down.) He has said that it needs reformed to fit in with our culture and that a limit be put on immigration from Islamic countries until their problems with extremism have been taken care of.

He has never said all Muslims should be banned, he has not condoned violence against Muslims, and his criticisms of Islam ironically are far more lenient than other critics of religion.

My god critics of Christianity used to go on about how all Christians were stupid, had pictures of Jesus shtting on a flag and eating it, and did movies ridiculing them as sheep which are beloved to this day.

"YES WE'RE ALL INDIVIDUAL!"

Has Tommy ever said all Muslims are sheep, morons and ridiculed them just for their beliefs, or has he pointed out violence, bigoted passages in their book and said that they are causing problems in our society and they are.

The problems with Islam are not just to do with terrorism. Over 50 percent of Muslims think homosexuality should be criminalised.

See here from the guardian and CNN of all sources.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjX1s_Y7bviAhUCtHEKHXUMC8cQFjAAegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fuk-news%2F2016%2Fapr%2F11%2Fbritish-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law&usg=AOvVaw3HRVYSGn3y998E_tWWvaR0

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjX1s_Y7bviAhUCtHEKHXUMC8cQFjABegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2016%2F04%2F11%2Feurope%2Fbritain-muslims-survey%2Findex.html&usg=AOvVaw3aW9uPAtFh6mAdSnlzn5nC

Furthermore who was it that didn't want homosexuality to be taught about in sex ed classes recently? Oh that's right it was majority Muslims.

Then there are also issues of grooming, honour killings and conservative views towards jews and women from the Muslim community.

Their community needs sorted out. If their population grows and grows with these attitudes it could lead to serious problems for other groups. I worry about LGBT people the most. With generation Z opposed to gay marriage and the rise of conservative Muslims it looks like it could be a very hard time ahead for the LGBT community.

Still Tommy is just trying to bring these issues to head. Now that's not to say he hasn't made mistakes yes. I don't like street protests. They do get out of control, and yes I don't blame Muslims for not wanting to take part in a march.

Also yes he has been getting a bit too desperate for money recently, but in all fairness to him in both cases how else is supposed to be heard make a living considering he has been shut down, ostracised and persecuted by the media.

And please the charges against him last year were utter bogus and have debunked again and again.

Also finally I'd hardly call Sam Harris a fanatic or far right. Have you ever read his work?

22Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 3:19 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
@burrunjor wrote:He has said that it needs reformed to fit in with our culture and that a limit be put on immigration from Islamic countries until their problems with extremism have been taken care of.

I would say (and Paul Collier is with me on this) the refugee/migration system as a whole needs a reform first. The system hasn't been updated much since World War II ended, and yet global transport and communications have made the old system redundant and unable to anticipate the chaos of the 2015 migrant crisis.

If it were reformed, the incoming numbers we were getting would probably be manageable (and ergo easier to vet for who were legitimate and who were criminals or Jihadis), and others would be able to settle and find work in neighbouring states if they were allowed work permits there.

But so far the only EU figure I've seen even try to address the roots of the problem is Federica Mogherini.

In any case we can't exactly complain about immigration from Islamic countries when we're (by 'we' I mean the West) the ones who bombed and destabilized Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq and effectively destroyed their borders, giving free reign to the people-smuggling industry.

23Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 11:06 pm

stengos

stengos
@Tanmann wrote:
And I think what Burrun is getting at is that if Farage's Brexit party replaces UKIP as the only available option in most regions for being a bullwark against the EU, mass immigration and sinister Islamist agendas, then we're going to get all the shit "don't work, don't eat" policies of Farage with it that we possibly wouldn't have got under UKIP

Okay but is that really a problem in the European Parliament elections? Even with all the seats they now have they won't hold the reigns of power at Westminster. So they won't be able to affect welfare policy in the UK. Indeed all the Brexit Party can really do is make a nuisance of themselves in Brussels and annoy Verhofstadt. Even if he gains some influence at Westminster over Brexit I would guess it will be in the area of withdrawing from the EU, not domestic policy.

Any way. The conversation has moved on way past what I can contribute to it so I will stop there. Thanks for responding.

24Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Mon 27 May 2019, 11:41 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
@stengos wrote:Okay but is that really a problem in the European Parliament elections? Even with all the seats they now have they won't hold the reigns of power at Westminster. So they won't be able to affect welfare policy in the UK.

I suppose not, although even with Milliband's Labour in opposition during the Syria/ISIS conflict, it seemed they had enough seats that enough MPs from Labour could vote against Cameron's proposals for air-strikes on Syria to keep postponing it happening until 2016 (maybe if it hadn't been postponed, ISIS would've been defeated sooner and taken far less innocents with them, but who knows).

Though if there's a concern to be had, it's not so much the successes of Farage in the vote we've just had that's concerning, but whether in future the 'second shot' will now be far easier for him.

Like I said, there's not been a UKIP option/candidate in my area since before I moved here. Presumably because they found this area wasn't fertile enough ground for them. But the concern might be that if this recent election was a testing ground for all parties, then Farage might see opportunities and advantages in courting constituencies he wouldn't otherwise have known were susceptible to him. Which means we might get more candidates planted in more areas and more of a betting chance for his party come next general election (after all, the Tories are no longer a sure win, and Labour might not be the sure main opposition party).

And in any case, a success of any party on their policies can have an effect on their opposition. It's often remarked that the Conservatives spent the 1980's keeping Labour out of power for so long, that eventually under Blair, Labour had to become just like the Tories in order to win. Likewise the Tories have already had to try and become more pro-Brexit in order to win the Ukip vote away. So there's always a potential for the parties to engage in sordid competitions for aping the most cynical policies from each other.

25Disappointed with Election Results Empty Re: Disappointed with Election Results on Tue 28 May 2019, 12:30 pm

Zarius

Zarius

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