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The Hive » NuPoo » NuPoo: The Chinballs Years (2018-☠️) » What *is* killing the current show in the viewing figures?

What *is* killing the current show in the viewing figures?

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Pepsi Maxil
ClockworkOcean
stengos
Bernard Marx
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Tanmann
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Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Whilst we're pretty unanimous in thinking the Whittaker era just isn't working, what exactly is it that's causing even fans of the RTD era to turn their nose up?

After all, RTD's era could be just as badly written, just as preachy and issue/agenda-led. Furthermore, you'd think New Who fans would be new to the show's rules and thus not as thrown as us that a female Doctor is now possible.

So what's making such a difference to those viewers? Why is Whittaker's era a deal-breaker to them in a way RTD's wasn't?

REDACTED

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RTD's era as dire as most of it is, at least had the odd diamond in the rough with the Daleks, The Empty Child and The Weeping Angels which were usually creations of other writers. Not to mention it treated the original series as a closed book and didn't threaten to piss on it's legacy as much as the next two eras.

Chinballs just took all the previous two eras many problems and dialled them up to 100 whilst retconning more of the original series established sacred cows than the previous eras did.

Bernard Marx

Bernard Marx

I suppose it’s down to the fact that, as crap as it could get, RTD’s era was generally very frenetic and popularist, whereas the Chibnall era is just incredibly dour on every level. I can’t think of a single aspect of it that would have enamoured me as a kid at all- there’s a very depressing vibe to the era that I can’t put my finger on, and without a shred of creativity or intelligence. RTD’s era lacked either, and is indeed shite, but there was an over-abundance of enthusiasm and energy that it had. That, and it had the occasional passable script here and there, which Chibnall’s era just doesn’t have. I can’t think of a single script from this era that isn’t utter drivel.

It wears me down when re-watching any story from RTD’s era these days due to just how overwhelmingly frenetic, noisy, dumbed down and often incoherent it all is, but I can see why it would appeal to kids on a sensory level and entertain a less inquiring audience. The Chibnall era doesn’t even have that. It’s both interminably stupid and fucking dull at the same time.

stengos

stengos

Jodie. She lacks the presence and screen charisma of sbdy like Tenant. The Doctor is no longer an adult but like the 7 year old girls the show is trying to recruit as viewers.

Dull, uninteresting stories.

The preponderance of political proselytizing which is done in such a way it feels out of place and clunky.

Too many members of the "fam" who stand around kicking the scenery cos they have nothing to do and then Chib adds more supporting guest actors in each story who replace the fam anyway.

Phrases like "fam" and "team" just sound childish and put people off.

A "right on" political attitude that is putting off the straight white male deomograph which the show seems keen to alienate.

A failure on the part of the Great British public to appreciate Chris' genius. Gross, malodorious and coarse - everyone of them. Including me.

In contrast I've alway thought RTD chose more charismatic leads and concentrated on more action packed stories which put the stories first and the politics second. I don't necessarily think the politics was bult into the stories in a more organic or seamless way. But there was less of it under Russell and the emphasis was put on story development, rousing music and climaxes. Chib wants to ponder issues more which means the story narratives just stop dead. Its very dull and boring for the audience. I remember how excited my kids got at the end of Sound of Drums. They couldn't wait for Last of the Timelords. Somehow I don't think episode 1 of season 12 would have generated the same kind of excitement, and certainly not episodes like Rosa, Demons of the Punjab or Kerblam.



Last edited by stengos on 14th February 2020, 6:01 pm; edited 2 times in total

ClockworkOcean

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Dick Tater

Tanmann wrote:After all, RTD's era could be just as badly written, just as preachy and issue/agenda-led.

While I agree that RTD's era could be badly written and preachy, I wouldn't say that it was as bad as the Chibnall era in either respect. RTD never served up a script as astonishingly inept as Arachnids or Orphan 55, and for all its soap opera cliches, Davies' dialogue was never as amateurish, cringeworthy and over-expository as Chibnall's is 100% of the time. RTD's era managed to produce at least two or three above-average stories per year, whereas the current era has produced none whatsoever and plumbed previously unexplored depths of ineptitude.

As for the preachiness, RTD's constant promotion of suicidal pacifism was obnoxiously patronising, but it was worked into the scripts more organically than Chibnall's "issue of the week" approach. It was at least set up as a recurring theme with an (admittedly contrived) basis in the Doctor's backstory. Now, the Doctor just reflexively lurches to whatever the "woke" position on any given issue is for no apparent reason other than the preference of the writers. Up until the Chibnall era, it still felt like there was some point to the show's existence outside of the preaching, whereas it now seems to exist for the sole purpose of telling its audience what to think about current affairs, with everything else regarded as mere window dressing which warrants minimal attention. Plus, the RTD era never sought to legitimise hatred or discrimination on the basis of involuntary birth characteristics such as race or gender, something NuWho has only been guilty of since 2015.

Tanmann wrote:So what's making such a difference to those viewers? Why is Whittaker's era a deal-breaker to them in a way RTD's wasn't?

The abysmal acting is surely a factor. Whatever issues I had with Eccleston and Tennant pale in comparison to those I have with Whittaker. I find her utterly unconvincing, with no charisma, screen presence, or ability to convey age, wisdom and eccentricity. As I've said before, the greatest cast in the world couldn't have made Arachnids watchable, but Jodie's dire performance only compounded the problems. Even the sci-fi-hating crowd who only watched NuWho for its soap elements would likely be disappointed by the complete lack of character development. After a full series, the audience still had practically no idea who the 13th Doctor or Yaz were, and the latter didn't even have a conversation with Graham until seven weeks into a ten-episode series.

Frankly, there are many valid reasons why the general audience who were on board with RTD's era would be disappointed by this shit. I'm by no means a fan of RTD, but there are degrees of awfulness, and the Chibnall era is unquestionably further down the scale.

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

ClockworkOcean wrote:As for the preachiness, RTD's constant promotion of suicidal pacifism was obnoxiously patronising, but it was worked into the scripts more organically than Chibnall's "issue of the week" approach. It was at least set up as a recurring theme with an (admittedly contrived) basis in the Doctor's backstory. Now, the Doctor just reflexively lurches to whatever the "woke" position on any given issue is for no apparent reason other than the preference of the writers. Up until the Chibnall era, it still felt like there was some point to the show's existence outside of the preaching, whereas it now seems to exist for the sole purpose of telling its audience what to think about current affairs, with everything else regarded as mere window dressing which warrants minimal attention.

Hmm, do you think maybe it's that with the RTD era, there was still some sense or hope that the dramatic events and stakes might be enough to legitimately challenge Tennant's pacifist beliefs (if not shake him out of them completely), whereas with Jodie, stories just seem to exist to confirm her political pieties throughout? And ergo it doesn't feel like there's any kernel of truth there, beyond just propaganda?

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Because the series is deliberately sabotaging itself by choosing to commission the most mundane scripts that only SJWs find appealing.

ClockworkOcean

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Dick Tater

Tanmann wrote:Hmm, do you think maybe it's that with the RTD era, there was still some sense or hope that the dramatic events and stakes might be enough to legitimately challenge Tennant's pacifist beliefs (if not shake him out of them completely), whereas with Jodie, stories just seem to exist to confirm her political pieties throughout? And ergo it doesn't feel like there's any kernel of truth there, beyond just propaganda?

Yeah, that's about right. When the Doctor refuses to activate the delta wave generator at the end of Parting of the Ways, even though his decision is then validated by a stupid deus ex machina, the story still acknowledges that it's a potentially disastrous course of action. Or in Journey's End, when the Doctor stupidly objects to his clone destroying the Daleks, the possibility that failing to do so could have led to the destruction of the universe is still acknowledged. Both are examples of lazy writing, yet still manage to be vastly superior to Arachnids, which treats Jodie's decision to lock the spiders in a confined space as the unambiguously correct solution, failing to even acknowledge the fact that they're going starve and/or crush each other to death in there. Even when elements of the story logically would challenge her beliefs, Chibnall just pretends that they don't exist.

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

ClockworkOcean wrote:
Tanmann wrote:Hmm, do you think maybe it's that with the RTD era, there was still some sense or hope that the dramatic events and stakes might be enough to legitimately challenge Tennant's pacifist beliefs (if not shake him out of them completely), whereas with Jodie, stories just seem to exist to confirm her political pieties throughout? And ergo it doesn't feel like there's any kernel of truth there, beyond just propaganda?

Yeah, that's about right. When the Doctor refuses to activate the delta wave generator at the end of Parting of the Ways, even though his decision is then validated by a stupid deus ex machina, the story still acknowledges that it's a potentially disastrous course of action. Or in Journey's End, when the Doctor stupidly objects to his clone destroying the Daleks, the possibility that failing to do so could have led to the destruction of the universe is still acknowledged.

Uhuh.

I think in a way it's that prior to both those examples in the story, we felt like we were more or less engaged enough in the dilemma to feel mostly on the same page as the Doctor, before he did something so frustratingly stupid that it took us completely off that same page. But the engagement had been there and had felt a personal involvement.

Whereas with Jodie, I don't think I ever really have felt nearly on the same page as her Doctor. Barring maybe a few touch and go moments in Resolution. She just feels a bit of a Tennant 2.0 meme generator with a bit of an overbearing mother hen quality.

Like she's just someone you don't feel you're 'with' or you want tagging along on the adventure. Or worse, she's just someone you know is a 'non-playable character'.

Both are examples of lazy writing, yet still manage to be vastly superior to Arachnids, which treats Jodie's decision to lock the spiders in a confined space as the unambiguously correct solution, failing to even acknowledge the fact that they're going starve and/or crush each other to death in there. Even when elements of the story logically would challenge her beliefs, Chibnall just pretends that they don't exist.

Well, as I've said elsewhere, I think Chibnall just thinks the show has to be about showing the Doctor's way is morally superior, and he keeps coming up with dirt stupid ways to prove it, and just ignore that it's full of holes. And I think that might be partly down to him being raised as a fan on the era of Warriors, Resurrection, and Trial suddenly asking all kinds of crazy questions and demands of how the Doctor can prove himself to have the moral high ground, that perhaps Chibnall thinks he still needs to answer, in his stupid way, as if to justify why he and we should still be fans who live by the character.

Maybe he thinks easy answers that gloss over the obvious flaws will make that easier. (though of course, his aim is to keep and gain more 'true believers' than vindicate any of us classic fans).

burrunjor

burrunjor

Many reasons.

1/ Its come to represent a hated, poisonous ideology that is being rejected by the general public (identity politics.) Look at Brexit, Trump and Boris Johnson winning such landslides, not to mention Birds of Prey, Ghostbusters tanking badly.

Its stronger with Jodie's era than it was with RTD's. Moffat's was just as bad, but as we saw it was a gigantic flop too.

2/ Jodie is a terrible lead who doesn't appeal on any level.

You can't be special just for being a female lead, which sadly Jodie and Chinballs think they can (which shows how far behind they are.)

This isn't the 60s where Honour Blackman could be a sensation as Cathy Gale just for being a kick ass female character. Its like someone thinking they can get by, just by having realistic looking Dinosaurs after Jurassic Park. Strong roles for women are the norm now!

Furthermore her character isn't dynamic. She's quite wet and wimpy when it comes to making decisions. Who do you think little girls are going to see as more kick ass and dynamic? Buffy, Ripley, even Leela from Futurama, or Jodie telling us that giant man eating spiders are people too?

Her character isn't really anything either. She's not an Avon style anti hero as she's bland, she isn't however a Superman whiter than white hero, as seen with her awful handling of Graham's cancer. She's also not really an under dog as she deals with enemies too easily, but because her enemies are so pathetic like the Tping, she doesn't feel really badass or tough for taking them down.

She's just a generic lead.

Also not to be shallow, but her costume isn't exactly one that people are going to want to emulate either. Its AWFUL.

3/ Moffhack killed a lot of good will through his poor stories, lame publicity stunts and terrible casting choices. Look at how big a flop Dracula was simply because it had he and Gatiss' names attaached. Most general fans probably still think its much of the same production team and can't be bothered with that style.

4/ Its made by middle aged men who are desperately trying to be trendy, but are completely out of the loop. At least in the RTD time he had his eye on the ball in terms of what was mainstream.

Chinball is about 20 years out of date. He still thinks Buffy is what the kids are into artistically, and he thinks that identity politics is what the kids are into.

Basically this era comes over as this.



It really does.



5/ The Fitzroy Crowd have recycled the same shit over and over again for the past 15 years.

Companion comes from 21st century earth.

Companion has a flirty relationship with the Doctor.

Companion is the chosen one who will save every universe.

We will have to keep seeing the companions home life.

The Daleks, or the Cybermen, or the Master will be the main villains.

There isn't a single series that doesn't follow these cliches.

6/ It is an old show at this point, over 15 years old. Now as seen with True Who, a show can still overcome that, but sadly when its as stagnated as New Who then its just going to put people off.

The Brigade Leader

The Brigade Leader

It's a 15 year old dying programme that's naturally winding down.

The kids that grew up with Ecclescake,Teninch & Smitty are now in their mid 20s and have kids of their own. They're long gone.

Most of us old bastards wouldn't watch this shit anyway.

Chinball's brand of social justice doctor who only caters to a very niche audience of danger haired lezza feminists and goatee bearded four eyed soy boys on twitter.

Basically once you stop being a mainstream family show and aim it at a bizarre minority, you are going to get minority viewing figures.


Fendelman

Fendelman

Doctor Who is essentially a show about 1 character: the Doctor. And they fundamentally changed the character twice: first when they started the new series in 2005, and second with the female Doctor in series 11 (and not just because she's a girl).

What NuWho got wrong about the Doctor in 2005:

The Doctor is fundamentally not an action-hero type, he's a weird alien scientist largely driven by his curiosity, who only saves the day because he himself gets caught up in some situation needs to get out of it (Think about Hartnell in The Daleks - he gets himself in trouble because of his desire to explore the Dalek city), or people ask him for help (as it was with Pertwee and unit). The Doctor isn't some superhero type, all about 'fighting the good fight' and good vs. evil - this is why Capaldi's speech at the end of Twice Upon a Turd makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

The Doctor is also not your traditional ass-kicking good guy, he uses his mind: cunning, trickery, and also his technical skill to defeat his enemies. He studied on Galifrey (the most technologically advanced civilization in the Doctor Who universe), and this is what gives him an advantage over his enemies. Yet, he is also not a strict pacifist, he doesn't like violence, but he will fight his enemies if he thinks it's necessary. Paradoxically, NuWho got both these aspects of the character wrong.

And above all the Doctor does not fucking fuck, he had a granddaughter, so you have to assume that he did at some time. (Maybe Time Lords only reproduce during their 1st regeneration - but my point is that I don't want to fucking know information like that - because that shit is not what the fucking show is fucking about!)

And just look at the 9th Doctor's costume, I think there was a comment on here that he looked more like Angel than the Doctor, which he does. Angel is great, but he isn't the Doctor. Say what you want about Colin's costume, but I can imagine the Doctor (the real Doctor) wearing it in a way I can't see him wearing the 9th Doctor's costume.

What Nu-NuWho got wrong about the Doctor in series 11:

First, there's the whole female Doctor thing. Well, there already was Romana II, who was basically a female version of the Doctor. A Doctor Who-like show with a leading character like Romana II would be great. But the Doctor changing into a woman makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

Even if you could get past that, this new version of the Doctor comes off as neither the wise eccentric old scientist of the old series, or the cool exciting action hero of the new series. Chibs did exactly the same thing to NuWho fans regarding the character of the Doctor that RTD did to old Who fans. The character of the 13th Doctor just falls flat. Jodie's Doctor appeals to practically nobody, except for the maybe two or three people that like to hang out here: http://wokedoctorwho.com  Puke

...

Shit, I wrote a lot. TLDR, RTD fucked up the character of the Doctor and turned him from an eccentric wise old alien scientist into a boring traditional action hero type, this put off classic Who fans. Chibs fucked up that version of the Doctor and just made him/her boring, this put off fans of the new show.



Last edited by Fendelman on 9th May 2020, 1:34 am; edited 3 times in total

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Lord Pertwee's Knob wrote:It's a 15 year old dying programme that's naturally winding down.

The kids that grew up with Ecclescake,Teninch & Smitty are now in their mid 20s and have kids of their own. They're long gone.

Most of us old bastards wouldn't watch this shit anyway.

Chinball's brand of social justice doctor who only caters to a very niche audience of danger haired lezza feminists and goatee bearded four eyed soy boys on twitter.

Basically once you stop being a mainstream family show and aim it at a bizarre minority, you are going to get minority viewing figures.

That is a good point.

I've often felt like in theory the Moffat era should've been a case of New Who gradually growing up with its young viewership (in a similar way the Letts and Hinchcliffe era were).

But somehow it didn't really happen, outside of a few fits and starts maybe.

Whereas Jodie's era certainly hasn't, beyond maybe appealing to some gloomy, self-righteous teenagers, but not that demographic as a whole.

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Fendelman wrote:http://wokedoctorwho.com  

What *is* killing the current show in the viewing figures? Jumpin11

REDACTED

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Fendelman wrote:http://wokedoctorwho.com

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

I originally thought it was a joke site Shocked

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

Indrid Mercury wrote:
Fendelman wrote:http://wokedoctorwho.com


I think I'm going to be using this one quite often in the future:

Fendelman

Fendelman

If you really want to Puke you can go read: https://twitter.com/wokedoctorwho

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

They seem like really nice people Rolling Eyes

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

Fendelman wrote:If you really want to Puke you can go read: https://twitter.com/wokedoctorwho

What *is* killing the current show in the viewing figures? Giphy_11

iank

iank

Whittaker. She's awful.
And I hear it's also very boring.
Add PC preaching to the mix and that's a very narrow audience you're appealing to.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

I suppose I should attempt my take.

I believe Douglas Adams once said that the show should only undergo 20% change per season if it's to avoid alienating its core viewership.

My take is that it was the Capaldi era that was the change too far, too fast. There was some inevitable drop-off of viewers when Tennant left, but not quite as dramatically as Series 9 saw.

Jodie's era seemed to start by getting those lost viewers interested again. Perhaps offering the promise of a new slate and chance to get back into the show now the previous era's convolutions are over. That's how Jodie's era seemed to be promoted, as a 2005 comeback all over again.

And then over the season's course, those viewers seemed to opt out.

Sure some of them had been unused to watching the show serially for a while and had lost the habit. But I think some tried to give her a chance to see if a female Doctor worked for them or they could believe in it, and gradually they decided it didn't.

Maybe some felt they had to be polite about it for politically correct reasons by saying 'she's not the problem, it's the scripts', but politeness doesn't translate into passionate enthusiasm.

But the big problem is, it just wasn't a very gripping era, and it lacked any gripping actors or writing. Rosa was probably as compelling as the season got for them.

It probably just felt a bit vanilla and at too much of a distance from the old lore and the emotional connections they used to have with Tennant's time. The stories wouldn't co-operate with their wish for something more fun, and Jodie's performance wouldn't co-operate with their wish for something more serious.

It was too different, and it was also far easier to walk away from, as effortlessly as the show itself seemed. At first maybe fans felt they didn't want to walk away because they liked the show, but they gradually realized it was yesteryear's show they liked and cared about, and not this one.

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