Which is the best sequel to Classic Who?

There have been to date 5 sequels to Classic Who, all of which contradict one another to the point where they are incompatible. (More so than the three destructions of Atlantis, or UNIT dating controversy that are minor continuity blips.)

1/ The 96 movie, everyone here has probably seen it so I won't bother to explain its plot.

2/ The BBC books range for the 8th Doctor which has another time war with a race known as the Enemy and has the 8th Doctor destroy Gallifrey and kill Romana 3 at the end of the war with the Enemy (if memory serves me well, been a while since I read them.)

3/ Death Comes To Time: A webcast featuring McCoy that kills the Doctor in his 7th life permanently, erasing all of the other sequels.

4/ Scream of the Shalka: An animated series that has a different 9th Doctor played by Richard E Grant.

5/ The 21st Century series: Obviously taken as a whole its not going to be anyone's favourite here, but you can judge it on the parts you like, like Matt's first year if you want.

All of these sequels are contradictory to each other in major ways.

The movie, the novel range and the revival all are linked vaguely by having the 8th Doctor, but even then they don't add up. The novel range gives us a different destruction of Gallifrey, while the 96 movie reveals the Doctors half human, which is contradicted by the 21st century series where Handy is stated to be the first half human Time Lord.

So which is the best? Well I'm going to say Shalka, for the simple reason that it doesn't fuck up the original. The 96 movie retcons the Doctor to be half human, Death Comes To Time retcons Time Lords to be god like beings which I don't like, the novels have the Doctor kill Romana 3, whilst the 21st century series? Does it need said how it fucks things up?

Scream does what a sequel is supposed to do. It carries the story on with new adventures, rather than saying "it went like this instead." Yes there are some awful NuWhoisms like "TAKE ME HOME BIG BOY", and the Doctor fancying Sophie Okonedo's character etc. Still overall its the only one that doesn't change your enjoyment of Classic Who, so it wins by default. Not that the original needed a sequel, but Shalka at least stops the others from being the only sequels.

The Movie

The intentions behind it were decent, but it's undeniably a total mess. It fell into the same trap as NuWho of trying to pander to a non-sci-fi audience with American cultural references, romance, unnecessary earthbound scenes and unfunny gags, but simultaneously tried to compensate for that with gratuitous lore and references. It tried too hard to please everyone rather than simply tell a good story. If you want to get an idea of just how muddled things were behind the scenes, google the Leekley Bible. They clearly had no idea whether they wanted this to be a sequel or a reboot. McGann, McCoy and Ashbrook were great, as were the TARDIS set and soundtrack, but in hindsight, its only real value was as a springboard for the Big Finish audios.

Eighth Doctor Adventures (BBC Books)

I've only read a couple of these, so I'm not in the best position to judge. I do know that it gives the 8th Doctor an end (whether that means permanent death or regeneration) which contradicts Night of the Doctor, making it incompatible with NuWho. However, turning Romana a villain really doesn't sit right with me, and as with the VNAs, I get the impression that the Fitzroy crowd were in peak "look how edgy and adult we are" mode at the time. I find this cynical, self-loathing fanboy mentality extremely off-putting.

Eighth Doctor Big Finish Audios

I think these should count as a sixth since they contradict Death Comes To Time, Scream of the Shalka and arguably the novels too. They don't directly contradict NuWho, but prior to Doom Coalition, there weren't any direct links between the two either. The obvious drawbacks are the eventual crossover into NuWho prequel territory, the lack of finality, the frustrating question of exactly where to draw the line in terms of headcanon, and the fact that several of its key writers have since revealed themselves to be utter scum. Having said that, the early years were by far the closest thing to a genuinely faithful sequel Doctor Who ever had, proving that it's possible to tastefully update the formula without reinventing the wheel. To think that there was a time in the 21st century when the sole regular full-cast Doctor Who series starring the incumbent Doctor was producing stories like The Chimes of Midnight, Neverland and Scherzo. It was greedy of us to continue pining for a televised revival when the show was already back and doing just fine in a new format. These days, I can't quite decide whether to count it given what it's descended into since 2015.

Death Comes To Time

I'm drawn to it because of the finality it offers and McCoy's absolutely brilliant performance. A little mental gymnastics is required to make sense of its depiction of the Time Lords, but it's not irreconcilable. If it weren't for McGann's better audio stories, I'd have no qualms about considering this the end of canon. The notion of ending the series on the heroic final sacrifice of one of my favourite Doctors is immensely appealing to me, but it does mean jettisoning a hell of a lot of well-written, well-acted McGann stories, and I'm massively conflicted on whether that's a price worth paying.

Scream of the Shalka

It's... okay. The story is nothing to write home about and I find the animation very cheap and generic. Grant is a better 9th Doctor than Eccleston, and he plays his part well, but the way he was written is a bit odd. Aloof and aristocratic are one thing, but this Doctor often feels extremely cold bordering on vampiric, making the occasional sudden expression of empathy or childish excitement jarring. Then there's the infamous voicemail scene. Ugh. The best thing about it is that Paul Cornell has to live with the fact that he was the first ever person to produce an officially licensed, full-cast Doctor Who product which contradicts the existence of Jodie.

NuWho

NuWho's fundamental problem is that it was created by people who never truly believed in the show's concept and have always been desperate for the approval of whomever they deem to be the in-crowd at any given time, whether that's the dumbed down mainstream soap audience of the 2000's or man-hating SJWs of the 2010's. It always had the potential to be the greatest show on TV, and there are a surprising number of times when it actually came close to fulfilling that potential, but the bad stuff is bad enough to utterly destroy the credibility of the good stuff, and there's been much more of the former than the latter since 2014. By the end of the Capaldi era, Moffat had pretty much killed the show, then Chibnall came along and destroyed whatever minuscule chance of redemption it had left.

I'd have to go with Big Finish in general. A great corrective to the 80's mess, and to the injustice of the show's suspension and cancellation and the gutter direction of TV since. I always think of them as the revival we should've got. The chance at redemption Colin's Doctors was denied, the continuation of the McCoy era, and McGann's further adventures too, and even stuff like the Dalek Empire spin-off (easily a better spin-off than Torchwood) felt like it was exactly what a 21st Century Doctor Who was meant to offer.

I think they gave us some of the best Doctor Who-related productions ever, and frankly whether we're talking the Lost Stories range or the Eighth Doctor and Charley adventures, they gave us some fantastic stories that I'll never understand why we were denied on TV, then or now.

They're not what they once were, of course, and perhaps have carried on too long (certainly I became less enamored when some New Who cross-pollination crept their way in). But for a brief glorious moment they were the franchise truly being as great as it ever was.

You forgot the New Adventures.

Most of them are actually pretty shit, to be honest, and I'm going to be shocking and say of those choices, I'd say New Who, if only for Smithy and Karen.

ClockworkOcean wrote:The Movie

The intentions behind it were decent, but it's undeniably a total mess. It fell into the same trap as NuWho of trying to pander to a non-sci-fi audience with American cultural references, romance, unnecessary earthbound scenes and unfunny gags, but simultaneously tried to compensate for that with gratuitous lore and references. It tried too hard to please everyone rather than simply tell a good story. If you want to get an idea of just how muddled things were behind the scenes, google the Leekley Bible. They clearly had no idea whether they wanted this to be a sequel or a reboot. McGann, McCoy and Ashbrook were great, as were the TARDIS set and soundtrack, but in hindsight, its only real value was as a springboard for the Big Finish audios.

Eighth Doctor Adventures (BBC Books)

I've only read a couple of these, so I'm not in the best position to judge. I do know that it gives the 8th Doctor an end (whether that means permanent death or regeneration) which contradicts Night of the Doctor, making it incompatible with NuWho. However, turning Romana a villain really doesn't sit right with me, and as with the VNAs, I get the impression that the Fitzroy crowd were in peak "look how edgy and adult we are" mode at the time. I find this cynical, self-loathing fanboy mentality extremely off-putting.

Eighth Doctor Big Finish Audios

I think these should count as a sixth since they contradict Death Comes To Time, Scream of the Shalka and arguably the novels too. They don't directly contradict NuWho, but prior to Doom Coalition, there weren't any direct links between the two either. The obvious drawbacks are the eventual crossover into NuWho prequel territory, the lack of finality, and the frustrating question of exactly where to draw the line in terms of headcanon. Having said that, it's by far the closest thing to a genuinely faithful sequel Doctor Who ever had, proving that it's possible to tastefully update the formula without reinventing the wheel. To think that there was a time in the 21st century when the sole regular full-cast Doctor Who series starring the incumbent Doctor was producing stories like The Chimes of Midnight, Neverland and Scherzo. It was greedy of us to continue pining for a televised revival when the show was already back and doing just fine in a new format.

Death Comes To Time

I'm drawn to it because of the finality it offers and McCoy's absolutely brilliant performance. A little mental gymnastics is required to make sense of its depiction of the Time Lords, but it's not irreconcilable. If it weren't for McGann's better audio stories, I'd have no qualms about considering this the end of canon. The notion of ending the series on the heroic final sacrifice of one of my favourite Doctors is immensely appealing to me, but it does mean jettisoning a hell of a lot of well-written, well-acted McGann stories, and I've come to the conclusion that this is too big a price to pay.

Scream of the Shalka

It's... okay. The story is nothing to write home about and I find the animation very cheap and generic. Grant is a better 9th Doctor than Eccleston, and he plays his part well, but the way he was written is a bit odd. Aloof and aristocratic are one thing, but this Doctor often feels extremely cold bordering on vampiric, making the occasional sudden expression of empathy or childish excitement jarring. Then there's the infamous voicemail scene. Ugh. The best thing about it is that Paul Cornell has to live with the fact that he was the first ever person to produce an officially licensed, full-cast Doctor Who product which contradicts the existence of Jodie.

NuWho

NuWho's fundamental problem is that it was created by people who never truly believed in the show's concept and have always been desperate for the approval of whomever they deem to be the in-crowd at any given time, whether that's the dumbed down mainstream soap audience of the 2000's or man-hating SJWs of the 2010's. It always had the potential to be the greatest show on TV, and there are a surprising number of times when it actually came close to fulfilling that potential, but the bad stuff is bad enough to utterly destroy the credibility of the good stuff, and there's been much more of the former than the latter since 2014. By the end of the Capaldi era, Moffat had pretty much killed the show, then Chibnall came along and destroyed whatever minuscule chance of redemption it had left.

Excellent post. That is an accurate summing up of everything wrong with the sequels. I don't mind Big Finish being included as another sequel. Hell the more the better as it just further decanonises New Who.

I have no objection to killing the Doctor off in a sequel series for good (as long as it comes at the end LOL.) In fact I think that ideally they should have killed off the Doctor at the end of his 13th life. Every story has to have an end and DW despite its format is no different.

Are we going to get to the year 2075 and DW will still be following the same canon as 1965? Eventually canon will get too overwhelming and have to be wiped, so rather than undo those before you's work, why not just give it a proper clean slate?

The end of the 13th Doctors life would have been the perfect place to end it IMO. No unlimited regenerations, no "the universe needs the Doctor." Just have him go out in a good story

In this respect Death Comes To Time was a decent enough send off. Still I stick by my original point that its retcon of Time Lords have reality bending powers that they just never use for fear of consequences threatens to ruin tension for all previous Who stories.

As I said before Shalka is the only one that doesn't fuck up the original. If you take any of the others as canon, then when watching the original your perception of it is changed. Either you have to think "the Doctor could just use his god powers here and rescue everybody in a second, but is deliberately not for reasons?" Or "one day Romana is going to go evil and the Doctor will blow her up." Or "One day the Brig will be a Cyber Zombie floating through space, the Master in The Deadly Assassin secretely wants to boink the Doctor, and Susan will one day become Brian Blessed." Or "The Doctor is actually half human."

With Shalka however there is nothing like that. At a stretch there is a Doctor/Companion romance, but even then Sophie Okonedo is a better love interest than River Song. "HELLO SWEETIE!" UGH.

I actually quite liked the Master and the Doctor working together in Shalka. Say what you will about Cornell, but unlike the New Who writers he actually thought of a proper reason for them to work together.

No way would the Doctor ever want to redeem the Master like in Simm's time or in series 10. He is a mass murdering monster who has destroyed planets, killed the Doctor himself and slaughtered his companions families!

In Scream however the two are forced to work together by the Time Lords, with the Master's new robot body shutting down if he ever attempts to escape or turn on the Doctor.

Neither are happy about the situation (in fact the Master even considers suicide at various points.) But both make an effective team, which is why the Time Lords put them together.

Its quite a nice ending for the Master that on the one hand he is enduring the worst punishment, being essentially the butler to the man he hates more than anything, but in a way he is also acheiving a kind of redemption. Either that or going down in a final showdown with the Doctor are the best endings for him, and it doesn't rewrite his relationship or motivations from Classic Who.

Big Finish may have better stories than Shalka, but their inclusion of New Whoisms kind of fuck up their status as a sequel. Though you can have the best of the Big Finish series lead into Shalka. I suppose the best of Paul McGann's audios, with Shalka as the sequel together are the best and most legit attempts to carry on True Who in the 21st century.

iank wrote:You forgot the New Adventures.

Most of them are actually pretty shit, to be honest, and I'm going to be shocking and say of those choices, I'd say New Who, if only for Smithy and Karen.

I agree that series 5 of New Who is unquestionably better sci fi and tv than Scream of the Shalka or most of BF's efforts.

Still again what's larded on before and after it cancels it out IMO, but you know my complaints with that.

Tanmann wrote:I'd have to go with Big Finish in general. A great corrective to the 80's mess, and to the injustice of the show's suspension and cancellation and the gutter direction of TV since. I always think of them as the revival we should've got. The chance at redemption Colin's Doctors was denied, the continuation of the McCoy era, and McGann's further adventures too, and even stuff like the Dalek Empire spin-off (easily a better spin-off than Torchwood) felt like it was exactly what a 21st Century Doctor Who was meant to offer.

I think they gave us some of the best Doctor Who-related productions ever, and frankly whether we're talking the Lost Stories range or the Eighth Doctor and Charley adventures, they gave us some fantastic stories that I'll never understand why we were denied on TV, then or now.

They're not what they once were, of course, and perhaps have carried on too long (certainly I became less enamored when some New Who cross-pollination crept their way in). But for a brief glorious moment they were the franchise truly being as great as it ever was.

Big Finish did a lot of classic stuff, but I hate to say I'm so angry with them recently that I haven't gone back to their stuff for a while. Its petty I know, and I'm sure I will, but for now I'm just too pissed.

Gary Russell is one of the most obnoxious dickheads involved in the brand. It was disappointing as I always thought he would have been a better showrunner than RTD or Moffat as he seemed to like and understand the show better than them.

Sadly he's just as big a sellout with his gloating over people not happy with a female DW, and boasting about blocking them. (Imagine boasting about blocking anyone.) Then there are his nasty, spiteful comments about being happy that some old Dinosaurs don't like the New DW Time Team.

I'm in my 20s Gary you twat and I think they're a joke, mostly because they don't actually LIKE the show and use it to promote their own careers and agenda.

All Gary Russell's done with those comments is ensure that I and many other fans are loathe to give the sell out tosser any credit he is actually due.

To be honest Gary was always the worst writer on the range. His audios tended to be unending, flippant, hollow fanwank with no point.

He was probably the better main-line producer compared to Nick Briggs though since he seemed to exercise a better sense of quality control.