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Why are DW fans so spineless?

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1Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Why are DW fans so spineless? 7th May 2019, 11:26 am

burrunjor

burrunjor

I've been watching all of the Resident Evil films recently. They are hated by fans of the games.

Speaking as a huge fan of the games I can see why. They abandon pretty much all of the plot points, they feature a heroine who is super powered, when the whole point of the originals was ordinary people surviving in horrible circumstances. Alice the main character wasn't even in the games (and consequently the games actual heroes like Jill and Chris are pushed to the side.) Finally they are more action based, where as the games are more about atmosphere and horror.

Still they are all good films in their own right. Alice is an interesting heroine, the action scenes are great, and the cast in all films are brilliant. You have Michelle Rodriguez (who is gorgeous and always amazing) Milla Jovivitch, Oded Fehr and Wentworth Miller who are always good action leads.

Still most fans hate them and trash them for how unfaithful they are. Same applies to the 98 Godzilla. Once again overall that wasn't a bad film. Its not a classic, but its a decent enough monster flick. Yet fans hated it because it abandoned so many of Godzilla's trademark characteristics, his firey breath, the fact that he is unkillable etc.

Yet when it comes to DW its fandom (ironically perceived as the most difficult) have always been happy to let it's traditions get tossed out of the window.

The Doctors asexuality, his moral code, his reasons for travelling, the time lords even his dress sense, were all thrown in the bin when New Who started, and most fans accepted it? Can you imagine Missy going down in any other franchise.

Of course finally after Jodie all of these fans seemed to have finally woken up and there is now a proper backlash against the revival, but its come too little too late. If the fans had made it clear in Eccelston's series that this was NOT DW, all of it could have been avoided. Question is why didn't they?

Why did Who fans buy into this "DW is all about change" crap and happily sell the show they claimed to love out?

2Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 7th May 2019, 12:02 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

I reckon the brains of fans are buried deep in a landfill site somewhere, possibly the same one where those old ET ATARI cartridges were found. My contempt for fandom reached a limit after I had called out certain sections of the pro-Whittaker brigade on my old Facebook page for their bullying tactics. Funnily enough, I received a torrent of abuse after that which only proved my point. Anyone that utters the words "Doctor Who is about a change" in my presence will be struck in the face by my tatty, cum stained Key to Time boxset. You have all been warned!

3Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 7th May 2019, 12:28 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

burrunjor wrote:I've been watching all of the Resident Evil films recently. They are hated by fans of the games.

Speaking as a huge fan of the games I can see why. They abandon pretty much all of the plot points, they feature a heroine who is super powered, when the whole point of the originals was ordinary people surviving in horrible circumstances. Alice the main character wasn't even in the games (and consequently the games actual heroes like Jill and Chris are pushed to the side.) Finally they are more action based, where as the games are more about atmosphere and horror.

Still they are all good films in their own right.

I thought the first one was pretty good and engaging.

I was disappointed that the second was so choppy, silly and incoherent despite having the right "look", and that 3 and 4 were both so dull AND more unforgivably, just completely abandoned the surviving gang of the second film without explaining whatever happened to them.

The fifth I thought was actually a lot of fun. But so much so that when the 6th film was complete garbage that trashed the movies' continuity, I genuinely felt offended and insulted after having gotten so invested.

So yeah, it left me hating that film series the same way as I ended up hating Moffat's era.

4Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 7th May 2019, 2:04 pm

burrunjor

burrunjor

I thought the first one was pretty good and engaging.

I was disappointed that the second was so choppy, silly and incoherent despite having the right "look", and that 3 and 4 were both so dull AND more unforgivably, just completely abandoned the surviving gang of the second film without explaining whatever happened to them.

The fifth I thought was actually a lot of fun. But so much so that when the 6th film was complete garbage that trashed the movies' continuity, I genuinely felt offended and insulted after having gotten so invested.

So yeah, it left me hating that film series the same way as I ended up hating Moffat's era.

The first one is definitely the best. Best story, best cast, and captures the feel of the games more in that it is more of a horror story. Consequently it seems to be the one the fans like the most too.

I personally would rate the 4th one as the best after the first. I like Wentworth Miller. He's always welcome on my tv. His role is a bit more bland in the film. Miller at his peek is his performance as Captain Cold in the Arrowverse IMO. He's a real proper Avon type of character in that and his story arc from Flash to Legends is amazing (and quite moving too.)

Still he's good as always in Resi 4. (I do feel a bit sorry for the guy though the way he always plays criminals who have to break out of a prison. All 3 of his most high profile roles to date have been that LOL.)

Claire was also pretty badass, and I felt 4 overall was a lot scarier than 2 or 3. There was a greater sense of fear and hopelessness like the games as Alice was brought down to normal. Super powered Alice was the franchises biggest mistake as it turned it into more of a superhero thing than a horror survival story. The Zombies were never scary when she was superpowered, even in a massive crowd.

Plus the Axeman in 4 was brilliant. I loved how insane it was. He just popped up out of nowhere and was completely indestructable. One of the leads even said "what the fuck is that thing!" That was my sentiments exactly LOL.

Also the fight with Claire and Alcie against the Axeman was great. Definitely the best fight with one of the larger monsters.

As for 5 I think it was a bit weak only because it was kind of a greatest hits film, just replaying the old characters and scenes. Still again Michelle Rodriguez is also always welcome on my tv (for different reasons LOL.) I also liked her death scene. It was one of the most over the top and effective without being gory.

I haven't seen the 6th one yet. I'll be watching it tonight, but its sad to hear it doesn't live up to the previous entries. I do agree that they were wrong to ditch their cast from film to film. Jill after the end of 2, Chris and Claire after the end of 4.

Still overall I'm sorry nothing in ANY of the Resi movies is as bad as Moffat era Who. Look at the casting alone. Yeah they may have relegated Chris and Jill to side characters, but at least the actors they got to play them are proper choices for the role. I might add that Wentworth Miller said that he researched the character after being cast. Can you imagine Michelle Gomez doing that for the Master? (To be fair to her it would have pointless if she did.)

5Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 7th May 2019, 2:47 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

burrunjor wrote:As for 5 I think it was a bit weak only because it was kind of a greatest hits film, just replaying the old characters and scenes.

Fair enough. I can see your point.

I haven't seen the 6th one yet. I'll be watching it tonight, but its sad to hear it doesn't live up to the previous entries.


There's a lot that's wrong with the 6th film.
The editing is really choppy and shit.
There's a pointless, ridiculous bit of heavy-handed social commentary with this extremist Christian preacher villain trying to facilitate the apocalypse as God's work, and who won't go away throughout the film.
There are numerous ridiculous retcons, the most offensive of all being a changed backstory of the disabled girl from 2 who inspired the red queen.
Wesker is just a ridiculous annoyance in it.
It has a really stupid cop-out ending that's almost like RTD wrote it.

After I watched it, I thoroughly regretted doing so.

Still overall I'm sorry nothing in ANY of the Resi movies is as bad as Moffat era Who.

You haven't seen Res Evil 6 though.... It's BAD!

In all seriousness I meant more that they're comparable in the sense of later taking the kinds of flippant twists and turns and retcons that retroactively ruins even the bits of past entries I used to enjoy.

Look at the casting alone. Yeah they may have relegated Chris and Jill to side characters, but at least the actors they got to play them are proper choices for the role.

The stupidity of the Gomez casting aside, I think Moffat was better at finding strong actors for the show than whoever was casting the Res Evil films. Frankly I think Jenna Coleman out-acts most of the Resident Evil cast.

Trouble is her talents (as were Capaldi's and everyone else's) were wasted on garbage scripts and bi-polar character development (by which I mean her character writing was erratic, extreme and all over the place from one moment to next).

In a way Series 8's Doctor and Clara scenes were like what Season 19's petty companion bickering scenes would be like in the hands of superlative actors. They'd made an heroic and moving, raw effort, but ultimately what was the point if it made no sense, came out the blue, and was going to be forgotten after anyway?

I guess you could say with Moffat against the Res Evil films it's a case of higher highs but also lower lows.

6Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 7th May 2019, 5:15 pm

TiberiusDidNothingWrong

TiberiusDidNothingWrong
Dick Tater

I like the films for pure entertainment, they're obviously pretty badly written but that's no reason to deny yourself of fun.

The first one is definitely the best, almost a 'good' film.

Apocalypse was a mess, but still a lot of fun. I loved Jill Valentine in the film - the only video game character they did much justice - and I'd have preferred it if she was the lead in that one.

Extinction had a nice setting, plenty of good scenes, and Iain Glen. Ali as Claire Redfield is fine, more because of the substantive role she plays than her resemblance.

Afterlife feels like PWSA playing with 3D more than anything. Wentworth is fine but he doesn't feel anything like Chris Redfield.

Retribution was just a collage of set-pieces. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Barry Burton and Ada were decent, but Leon Kennedy wasn't even close - and they didn't even bother to bring him back for the last one.

The Final Chapter I thought was pretty decent honestly. You could tell they made an effort. They tried to tie everything together and it at least had a plot. Iain Glen is back, probably because they realise he made a better villain than their attempt at Wesker. I'd say it's the second best ngl.

I don't get the fan outrage really. I love the Resident Evil games, but they were always silly and inconsistent - and there are already multiple canonicities just by necessity. The films are quite separate from the games, so there's no reason why they spoil the games in any way.

I think the main problem is that people wanted films that were more adaptative, when they really just strayed into their own thing - barring some, often misguided references.

7Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 7th May 2019, 6:46 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

I should probably confess that I don't game much these days.

I have some nostalgia for the Commodore 64 (favourite games: Slap N Tickle, Batman the Movie, Globetrotter, Ghosts N Goblins, and of course Dalek Attack)

And for the Sega Megadrive (favourites being Sonic, Earthworm Jim, Terminator 1 & 2, Robocop Vs Terminator and Zool).

I've sometimes played on a friend's Playstation. I've played a bit of Worms, Siphon Filter, GTA 2, and I have played some of Resident Evil 2 but never got far into the game before getting eaten.

But beyond that I don't own any games console anymore, and the most advanced games I've played recently are just PC games like Bejeweled 2 & 3, and the Samantha Swift archaeology games (which I'm very fond of, and really to me I think of them as like the Benny audios would be if the character's smugness was toned down to tolerable levels).

So in that regard I never had a strong connection to the game characters of Resident Evil enough to be insulted by how the films handled them. Nonetheless the films did get me to care about some of the guest characters as film characters in their own right, and then pissed me off by mishandling, dismissing and erasing them between movies.

I can enjoy schlock (hell I'll happily enjoy the hell out of Horns of Nimon), but I hate when a film or TV show gets me to care about its characters, and then leaves me realizing I shouldn't have bothered.

8Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 7th May 2019, 7:30 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

burrunjor wrote:Yet when it comes to DW its fandom (ironically perceived as the most difficult) have always been happy to let it's traditions get tossed out of the window....... If the fans had made it clear in Eccelston's series that this was NOT DW, all of it could have been avoided. Question is why didn't they?

I think after the Classic show's golden age ended and the decline started from Season 15 on.... there was fan disgruntlement and outrage, but gradually as things got worse for longer, I think diminished expectations began to set in. It became more common to say "it didn't hold up, but then lots of Doctor Who doesn't." (or to defend the worst 80's stories by saying it was at least better than the Williams era), and treat the show as schlock that we affectionately mocked.

I certainly felt out of sorts because to me Classic Who was serious business and depicted a thrilling, perilous universe that was far from trivial and far from neatly resolved.

As for the New Series, I think I realized this when watching the new Mary Poppins movie, and it reminded me of Spock in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. That sometimes after a long comeback, or indeed a regeneration.... there is a brief period where the character comes back and we're meant to be a bit not sure about them. Like they've changed a bit, something's happened to them, they're a bit colder, and there gradually comes a point where we see the old character kind of emerge.

With RTD this was made a point of with the Time War trauma, and so it allowed us to remain engaged and speculate what had made him change, and it almost became a way to engage with the character and feel that we were on a journey of self-discovery to see him learn to become his old self again.

And without wanting to bring up the usual suspects again, it's not like Classic Who hadn't seen its own worst character assassinations of the Doctor too.

The sense that maybe the old essence of the Doctor was still in him but in either a fragmented, disparate way, or buried underneath the modern late night talk show host personality... but we liked to think either it was so buried in him that it was compressed like sharp diamond, or that we were with him in piecing all the fragments together again.

And I suppose that kept our good will with the character longer than we really should've. And then Moffat seemed to get the character righter.

And of course, like history repeating itself, because the RTD era often felt so wrong and we were used to making excuses for it, we tended to either elevate the Moffat era to greatness for not being RTD's awfulness, or at least defend it as no worse, usually.

I'll never understand why those fans didn't decide that Missy was a line too far though. To a degree I get that younger fans couldn't really have known better, because maybe from as much of the show they've seen, gender-bending regenerations are possible. Maybe most older fans were still in the state of just wanting the new generation of fans to still like the show and not see them grumbling, and so felt that arguing against the move would disabuse the new fans of their naivety, the show would lose popularity and ratings and it'd suddenly be 1986 all over again.

It's the "Keep Scientology Working" philosophy with those fans.

There's the other possibility that those fans were just too much in a state of energized hysterical hype for even this to bring them out and break immersion, even though it was an appalling bit of author's fiat, existing to be an unguessable surprise twist for its own sake, just so Moffat can feel smug about it. And in a sense the hysterical hype pulled them through it and made them even more excited for the fact that seemingly now anything could happen.

Even if it meant now nothing in it had meaning anymore.

9Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 10th May 2019, 1:24 pm

burrunjor

burrunjor

Well I saw Resident Evil 6 last night. Overall it was a decent enough flick. I would have liked to see Chris and Jill again. They should have had them get together. That would have been a fitting end.

Still the Alice story was resolved quite well and Ian Glen was excellent as always. How great a Doctor or Master would he have made?

Sorry Tanman but I can't agree that any of Resident Evil was as bad as Moffat era Who.

10Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 10th May 2019, 1:34 pm

burrunjor

burrunjor

I don't get the fan outrage really. I love the Resident Evil games, but they were always silly and inconsistent - and there are already multiple canonicities just by necessity. The films are quite separate from the games, so there's no reason why they spoil the games in any way.

I think the main problem is that people wanted films that were more adaptative, when they really just strayed into their own thing - barring some, often misguided references.

No offence but that reminds me of the type of defence I'd hear about Missy on IMDB (Tanman will attest to that.) "Who cares if Missy is a joke. The Master was always a joke."

I do agree though that since they are seperate from the Games then they aren't like New Who, which actively ruins the original by association. (Until it gets retconned out.)

Ultimately however the outrage is more that the games first of all promised to be a film adaptation, yet pretty much tossed everything of the games out, barring the same basic premise and a few in name only characters.

Furthermore as the games reached a wider audience, then in popular culture when people think of Resident Evil it will be Alice rather than Jill. I have a similar anger towards Pissy, Kissy, Missy. Now future generations will think of the Master as the Doctors version of fucking Catwoman instead of Moriarty, not just because of Moffat era Who, but because now the general fan consensus is that there was ALWAYS a gay subtext.

Of course again having said that I do love the Resi movies and the games too, and the films didn't really disgrace any characters from the games at least.

Wentworth Miller's version of Chris Redfield may not be much like the character, but he's a decent enough, brave hero. The only way he could have been as bad as Missy is if he had been a horny Disney character. Maybe an oversexed Goofy wanting to hump Milla Jovivitch's leg?

Again however my original point was that Resi fans still got angry with the films for disrespecting the games they loved to that small extent. Who fans meanwhile actually did try and justify Missy at first. I'm not just talking insane Claudia Boleyn types. Actual Who fans (again Tanman will attest to some of the people we had to deal with on IMDB who said that Missy channelled Delgado!)

11Why are DW fans so spineless? Empty Re: Why are DW fans so spineless? 10th May 2019, 1:40 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

burrunjor wrote:Well I saw Resident Evil 6 last night. Overall it was a decent enough flick. I would have liked to see Chris and Jill again. They should have had them get together. That would have been a fitting end.

Still the Alice story was resolved quite well and Ian Glen was excellent as always. How great a Doctor or Master would he have made?

Well, I guess maybe it makes sense enough as a wrap-up to the rest of the film series, if you're willing to forget the events of the second film (I guess the makers either didn't remember or care, or trusted the audience wouldn't).

I just know I was deeply disappointed. Still if you enjoyed it, I'm glad someone did.

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