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@burrunjor wrote:

This is why I think you're a twunt.

Fuck you, and fuck Condell.

Being critical of Islam is one thing, but Condell is a fucking knuckle-dragging shitlark.

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Its funny Mike how even after all this time you still can't put together a proper argument. Just more silly insults. You can't debunk anything I, or for that matter Pat Condell said.

Tell me which of the following facts are wrong?

1/ Islam is an ideology. Not a race. Criticising it is like criticising the KKK, Nazism, Christianity etc. Are you saying that we can't criticise any of these ideologies either?

2/ Islam says to kill all gay people, to kill all non believers, to expel the Jews, that black people are inferior to white people and should be their slaves, and are ugly, pug nosed, raisin headed, animals, that women are inferior to men in every way. And finally to lie to nonbelievers through a process called Taqiyya that Islam is peaceful.








3/ That in almost any country where Islam is allowed to call the shots homosexuality is either illegal, or punishable by death, women have less rights than men, there is often a rape culture, and that every Islamic terrorist is actually following what Muhammed says when they slaughter non believers.

Any peaceful Muslims are that in spite of their faith. They are diluted, westernized Muslims, but the religion needs a reform.

Personally I wish Islam would just vanish, but its too deeply rooted for that, so instead it needs to be reformed. Its pretty shitty though to tar people like Pat Condell who are brave enough to say it like it is about Islam in public racists.



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@burrunjor wrote:You can't debunk anything I, or for that matter Pat Condell said.
Yes, I can.

@burrunjor wrote:1/ Islam is an ideology. Not a race. Criticising it is like criticising the KKK, Nazism, Christianity etc. Are you saying that we can't criticise any of these ideologies either?
This displays the typical lack of nuance in bigots and xenophobes like Condelve. You'll note, I hope, the intimation in my original post which suggests that I believe Islam *can* be criticised. Nothing should be immune to criticism. However, the comparison here is a poor one. 'Islam is an ideology. Not a race.' Right. And what race are the majority of Muslims? What does criticism of Islam tend to centre around? Race, more often than not, comes into it. You'd have to be being deliberately fucking obtuse not to see that. Consider what is implicit in the prevalent arguments against Islam.

@burrunjor wrote:2/ Islam says to kill all gay people, to kill all non believers, to expel the Jews, that black people are inferior to white people and should be their slaves, and are ugly, pug nosed, raisin headed, animals, that women are inferior to men in every way. And finally to lie to nonbelievers through a process called Taqiyya that Islam is peaceful.
All of your sources are from anti-Islam channels and white guys. Can I have some genuine sources, please? Preferably from your own research which, surely, has taken place for you to be so resolute on such matters.

I do not claim to be an expert on Islam, but I know for a fact that this is woefully one-sided. More on that later.


@burrunjor wrote:3/ That in almost any country where Islam is allowed to call the shots homosexuality is either illegal, or punishable by death, women have less rights than men, there is often a rape culture, and that every Islamic terrorist is actually following what Muhammed says when they slaughter non believers.
When you say 'Islam is allowed to call the shots', what, exactly, do you mean? If you infer some sort of theocracy, I would ask for a deeper analysis of the examples you didn't give. What else is at work in these situations? What about the rape culture in the West? Can you show that the varying phenomena which 'control' the West are not 'religious'? I want you to think about that last question.

Again, I do not think Islam should be above criticism. This would simply be to shut down discussion, which is fascistic, and which I abhor. And you know what? The vast majority of Muslims would agree with me here. To my shame, I do not know the location of the quote, but I believe it was after the Paris attacks that a Muslim said it was utterly foolish to suppose that Islam had nothing to do with the attacks. It did. But we must examine how this involvement manifested, what led to it etc. The role of the West in provoking the retaliation, indeed, the role of the West in the creation of Daesh.

You talk of excising Islam. To what end? This is utterly absurd and shameful. When the West bombs the ever-loving fuck out of Syria - which I know you don't agree with - what sort of condemnation should then fall on the West for all those children lying in several pieces under the rubble of their homes? This isn't all down to the West, I grant you -- but that is rather the point: most of the victims of Daesh are fucking Muslims. The most vocal critics of Daesh are other Muslims. The most eloquent critics of Islam are - you guessed it - other Muslims. You seem to impose upon Islam an inability to change, to 'move', to 'progress', to use Eurocentric terms. 'We' cannot simply 'get rid' of Islam. Nor should we want to. Many, many wonderful people are Muslims. They are people. They critique their religion, while following the religion, which, to my mind, is perhaps an example of the most devout behaviour one can attain to. To blindly follow is not to invest in, to take into one's heart, to become enlightened. Enlightenment and Islam are not mutually exclusive. You seem to grant the West with the capacity to 'become', why not do the same for Islam? Do you see it as a static ideology? Then you really are a fool.

@burrunjor wrote:Any peaceful Muslims are that in spite of their faith. They are diluted, westernized Muslims, but the religion needs a reform.
This is a fucking moronic statement.

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This displays the typical lack of nuance in bigots and xenophobes like Condelve. You'll note, I hope, the intimation in my original post which suggests that I believe Islam *can* be criticised. Nothing should be immune to criticism. However, the comparison here is a poor one. 'Islam is an ideology. Not a race.' Right. And what race are the majority of Muslims? What does criticism of Islam tend to centre around? Race, more often than not, comes into it. You'd have to be being deliberately fucking obtuse not to see that. Consider what is implicit in the prevalent arguments against Islam.

Ah thank you for proving why it is that you and others like you like Lady can't criticise Islam. Its not people like Condell's "racism" its yours. You have what is called a "soft bigotry of low expectations" Most Muslims are brown so therefore you can't say anything bad against them, as you ironically for all your liberal BS don't hold them to the same high moral standard that you do white people.

So fucking what if most Muslims are a particular race? Scientology is practised mostly by white people, is criticising that linked to anti white racism? The KKK where obviously all white, is criticising them linked to all white racism? Saying you're not a communist is racist against Russsians as Russia was a stronghold for communism?

Just imagine if Islam was practised by mostly big white hicks in the south would you care? And no, none of the criticism of Islam I have ever posted has been racist. Certainly none of Condell's has.

Also what race do Muslims mostly belong to? Africans? Arabs? Asians? Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Indonesia all Muslim countries in different parts of the world.

All of your sources are from anti-Islam channels and white guys. Can I have some genuine sources, please? Preferably from your own research which, surely, has taken place for you to be so resolute on such matters.

Again yet more racism. Why should their race enter into it at all? And also not true. In my previous posts, including the one to Islam apologist Lady I posted sources from Tree of Logic, a black bisexual woman.

Here I'll post it again.



Here's her vid on Taqiyya.



I also posted vids from Maajid Nawaz, a Muslim reformer, and Ayaan Hirs Ali, an ex Muslim black woman (who I also have praised repeatedly as a true feminist hero), Maryam Namazie and Blaire White a transexual woman.



So you can try and paint it as all white guys who hate brown people but that is so far from the truth.

The funny thing is Islam is a white supremacist religion! It says that all black people are inferior to white people, and it also says that all women are inferior to men, and that all LGBT people should be executed.

Thus it wouldn't surprise me that a black, bisexual woman like Tree would actually have more reason to hate Islam and be terrified of its influence than a white guy!

And yes I have studied the Koran, but these videos are also useful for getting a point across as they often have pictures of pieces of text from the Koran, which you would know if you watched them.

When you say 'Islam is allowed to call the shots', what, exactly, do you mean? If you infer some sort of theocracy, I would ask for a deeper analysis of the examples you didn't give. What else is at work in these situations? What about the rape culture in the West? Can you show that the varying phenomena which 'control' the West are not 'religious'? I want you to think about that last question.

I mean countries where Islam is in charge as you well know. Go visit somewhere like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and tell me if their treatment of women, gays and Jews is anything other than disgusting.

The vast majority of Muslims would agree with me here.

Really you sure about that?

Over half of British Muslims think Homosexuality should be criminalized

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiOiLygwPbSAhVMIcAKHcKxB1AQFgg6MAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gatestoneinstitute.org%2F7861%2Fbritish-muslims-survey&usg=AFQjCNGvzuGVsSFteAvvDf-mup-dBjedzQ&sig2=56nsWLmtU44mIVRAdudp7A&bvm=bv.150729734,d.ZGg

You talk of excising Islam. To what end? This is utterly absurd and shameful

LOL I never said that! I said the opposite that whilst I wish the religion would vanish, it is too deeply rooted to do that now, so it needs a reformation. Hence why I support Muslim reformers like Maajid Nawaz.

You seem to impose upon Islam an inability to change, to 'move', to 'progress', to use Eurocentric terms.


Maybe that's because Islam is supposed to be the word of God and it calls upon its followers to murder anyone who criticises or questions it, hence why people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali have to walk around with bodyguards in WESTERN societies for being critics of Islam.

Besides anyway I support Muslim reformers so that kind of fucks your argument.

What about the rape culture in the West?


One bad thing doesn't cancel out the other. And besides there isn't a rape culture in the west. Yes women get raped, and yes there are horrific miscarriages of justice, but that's not the same thing.

We view rape as the worst kind of crime, accusations of rape are enough to completely ruin someone's reputation. Not quite the same as Saudi Arabia.

When the West bombs the ever-loving fuck out of Syria - which I know you don't agree with - what sort of condemnation should then fall on the West for all those children lying in several pieces under the rubble of their homes?

Again one bad one doesn't cancel out the other. I have criticised the West's role in aiding the rise of Islamic extremism from a practical point of view, but at the same time I am not going to pretend that the ideology doesn't play a role in it either.

Again, I do not think Islam should be above criticism. This would simply be to shut down discussion, which is fascistic, and which I abhor.

You say that, yet I have never seen you provide any kind of critique of Islam, you shout down anyone who does as racist, you try and link legitimate criticism of an ideology to bigotry based on skin colour, so how are you any different to an SJW? You claim you hate them yet you spout all of the same things they do!

This is a fucking moronic statement.

How exactly? Its completely true. The only decent Muslims are people who abandon parts of their religion that do not fit in with western societies, but the point is the religion itself needs to be changed to fit in completely with western societies. Whilst many, many decent Muslims might abandon those bad parts of the Koran, others do not. Others are raised on them, and that's what leads not just to terrorism, but to regular Muslims having bigoted views of women and gays.

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@burrunjor wrote:Ah thank you for proving why it is that you and others like you like Lady can't criticise Islam. Its not people like Condell's "racism" its yours. You have what is called a "soft bigotry of low expectations" Most Muslims are brown so therefore you can't say anything bad against them, as you ironically for all your liberal BS don't hold them to the same high moral standard that you do white people.
Eh?

That's complete fucking strawman nonsense and you know it is.

Do you know what a 'liberal' is?

You're certainly no socialist.

@burrunjor wrote:So fucking what if most Muslims are a particular race? Scientology is practised mostly by white people, is criticising that linked to anti white racism? The KKK where obviously all white, is criticising them linked to all white racism? Saying you're not a communist is racist against Russsians as Russia was a stronghold for communism?
Are you actually reading what I'm saying? At all? Ever?

I'm saying most criticism of Islam is predicated upon race and an ignorant idea of what the religion stands for which is then linked to that race in a white supremacist ideological turn which goes on to regard them as 'savages'.

@burrunjor wrote:Just imagine if Islam was practised by mostly big white hicks in the south would you care?
Of course I would care. Why wouldn't I? The criticisms would then most likely turn away from racism and into something which tied, in a prejudiced move, poverty, a lack of education, and a lack of enlightenment together, resulting in something similarly awful.

@burrunjor wrote:Also what race do Muslims mostly belong to? Africans? Arabs? Asians? Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Indonesia all Muslim countries in different parts of the world.
Well done. You possess a modicum of knowledge. I am surprised.

@burrunjor wrote:Again yet more racism. Why should their race enter into it at all?
I'm saying it shouldn't. Are you so dense?

@burrunjor wrote:And also not true. In my previous posts, including the one to Islam apologist Lady I posted sources from Tree of Logic, a black bisexual woman.
Forgive me for not religiously following your boring fucking essays about nothing.

@burrunjor wrote:So you can try and paint it as all white guys who hate brown people but that is so far from the truth.
That's literally not what I'm saying.

@burrunjor wrote:The funny thing is Islam is a white supremacist religion! It says that all black people are inferior to white people, and it also says that all women are inferior to men, and that all LGBT people should be executed.
What is this 'it' that says?

Have you ever actually read any Muslim scholars?

@burrunjor wrote:Thus it wouldn't surprise me that a black, bisexual woman like Tree would actually have more reason to hate Islam and be terrified of its influence than a white guy!
You've never heard of Malcolm X, have you.

@burrunjor wrote:And yes I have studied the Koran, but these videos are also useful for getting a point across as they often have pictures of pieces of text from the Koran, which you would know if you watched them.
I find it so difficult to believe you've spent serious time studying anything in all honesty. You make recourse to crap racist YouTube videos, sloganeering, vapid, empty arguments, lacking comprehension, and a whole lot of words about nothing.

@burrunjor wrote:I mean countries where Islam is in charge as you well know. Go visit somewhere like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and tell me if their treatment of women, gays and Jews is anything other than disgusting.
I'm not defending Saudi Arabia. But I will also say that I do not think what goes on in that country is entirely down to Islam, and that is my point: you have no room for nuance in any of your arguments.

@burrunjor wrote:I said the opposite that whilst I wish the religion would vanish, it is too deeply rooted to do that now, so it needs a reformation. Hence why I support Muslim reformers like Maajid Nawaz.
What do you envisage a 'reform' to constitute? Better adherence to 'Western' values?

@burrunjor wrote:Maybe that's because Islam is supposed to be the word of God and it calls upon its followers to murder anyone who criticises or questions it, hence why people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali have to walk around with bodyguards in WESTERN societies for being critics of Islam.
There are literally quotes in the Qur'an which disprove what you have said. You have not studied it at all.

@burrunjor wrote:Besides anyway I support Muslim reformers so that kind of fucks your argument.
And yet you deem it impossible.

@burrunjor wrote:One bad thing doesn't cancel out the other.
No indeed, but I am using other examples to invite a sense of nuance in you, and to realise that you are pitting the 'good' West against the 'bad' Islam in terms of values. You say that moderate Muslims have been 'Westernised'.

@burrunjor wrote:And besides there isn't a rape culture in the west. Yes women get raped, and yes there are horrific miscarriages of justice, but that's not the same thing.
What is it then?

@burrunjor wrote:We view rape as the worst kind of crime, accusations of rape are enough to completely ruin someone's reputation. Not quite the same as Saudi Arabia.
And this invites a blanket condemnation of Islam?

@burrunjor wrote:Again one bad one doesn't cancel out the other. I have criticised the West's role in aiding the rise of Islamic extremism from a practical point of view, but at the same time I am not going to pretend that the ideology doesn't play a role in it either.
What of Western imperialism, though? Does the West need reform too? What of Western violence against Muslim countries? Should instead all Westerners be barred?

@burrunjor wrote:You say that, yet I have never seen you provide any kind of critique of Islam
Because it has never been called for in the threads I have been involved in. I don't need to do it for the sake of it, like you do with your utter fucking terror of a female Doctor.

@burrunjor wrote:you shout down anyone who does as racist, you try and link legitimate criticism of an ideology to bigotry based on skin colour, so how are you any different to an SJW? You claim you hate them yet you spout all of the same things they do!
You're a moron. I'm not the one drawing the link. Are you aware of the EDL? The NF? UKIP? People like that? You must surely be aware that the criticism already exists?

Condell is a fucking knuckle-dragger. Fuck him. He's a twat.

@burrunjor wrote:The only decent Muslims are people who abandon parts of their religion that do not fit in with western societies, but the point is the religion itself needs to be changed to fit in completely with western societies. Whilst many, many decent Muslims might abandon those bad parts of the Koran, others do not. Others are raised on them, and that's what leads not just to terrorism, but to regular Muslims having bigoted views of women and gays.
Do you feel that Western societies need to change as well?

I'm not saying one bad cancels out another. Again, I am inviting nuance. Look it up if you need to.

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Forgive me for not religiously following your boring fucking essays about nothing.

LOL you don't half respond to all of them though don't you? And again you haven't actually raised any proper arguments. Just abuse like that and this.

Condell is a fucking knuckle-dragger. Fuck him. He's a twat.

You make recourse to crap racist YouTube videos, sloganeering, vapid, empty arguments, lacking comprehension, and a whole lot of words about nothing.

I'm not offended. In fact I find it quite amusing in a way that a man who goes on about nuance all the time's way of arguing is basically "You and Pat Condell are big stupid poopy head's and I hate you".

Try actually looking at these people's arguments. Tell me what is actually racist in ANY of the videos I posted here? Go on tell me where is the racism?

I'm saying most criticism of Islam is predicated upon race and an ignorant idea of what the religion stands for which is then linked to that race in a white supremacist ideological turn which goes on to regard them as 'savages'.

And I'll ask you again what criticisms have I made, or indeed any of the people I have posted videos of, Tree of Logic, David Wood, Pat Condell, Blaire White that have not just been directed towards the ideology of Islam rather than the race of any of the people that follow it?

I'm waiting.

What do you envisage a 'reform' to constitute? Better adherence to 'Western' values?

100 percent. Western society is not perfect, but at least there is equality for everyone, LGBT people, women, blacks etc. Islam says all of these people are inferior to white men. So yeah it should change to fit in with our superior culture.

Is it racist to say Nazi Germany was an inferior culture?

Race has nothing to do with culture. A culture is just a set of ideas and beliefs, so yes some ideas are better than others, and therefore some cultures are better than others. Any culture that is modelled on the teachings of Islam that are xenophobic, racist, violent, homophobic, and sexist are bound to be shit like Saudi Arabia. Find me an Islamic culture that isn't utter shit?

There are literally quotes in the Qur'an which disprove what you have said. You have not studied it at all.

Really you uh, you sure about that?

Quran Violent Verses

No indeed, but I am using other examples to invite a sense of nuance in you, and to realise that you are pitting the 'good' West against the 'bad' Islam in terms of values. You say that moderate Muslims have been 'Westernised'.

Yes western values like accept gay people, give gay people the right to marry, treat all people as equals regardless of race, gender are obviously better values compared to, throw gay people off roofs, force women to wrap up, deprive women of basic human rights and view black people as less than animals.

Any peaceful Muslim in the west is someone who has abandoned the bad parts of their religion like prejudice against Jews, blacks etc and embraces the spiritual side in order to fit in with the west where everyone can live regardless of gender, sexuality and race.

Tell me this f this country became a majority Muslim one do you think that it would still be as tolerant a place? For gays, jews, women, black people, Hindu's, Christians, Atheists?

Eh?

That's complete fucking strawman nonsense and you know it is.

Do you know what a 'liberal' is?

You're certainly no socialist.

Its true. Why do you bother to defend such a poisonous ideology? "oh its followers are brown, so if we criticise the ideology then that means that racists might take advantage of it"

I have no issues with race. I call a toxic ideology out whenever I see it, if its practised by white or black people.

Because it has never been called for in the threads I have been involved in. I don't need to do it for the sake of it, like you do with your utter fucking terror of a female Doctor.

There was a thread about Islam in the old thread where Lady was being a rank Islam apologist and hey this is a thread about Islam too?

And I might add the female Doctor thing isn't a "terror". Its a worry about the show going down a very bad path which is fair enough considering all this and the other Hive site do is basically complain about New Who.

Apparently its okay for you and your clique to go on about Moff being a self loathing fanboy, a pube haired twat, RTD being a fat headed cunt, Barrowman being a twat etc all the time.

However as soon as someone says they think that New Who is going bad by going down the pandering to SJW's route you go on about how shit it is, how the Hive has been let down in terms of intellectual discussion etc.

Again you haven't ever been able to actually say anything constructive about my opinions of a female Doctor. All just "he's a sexist", "he can't stand women on tv" etc.

You've never heard of Malcolm X, have you.

Yes, a black Muslim who stupidly didn't know about his religion. Again look up Taqqya to see how a lot of feminists, black people, liberals etc are taken in by Islam.

Did you know that Islam had a slave trade that killed over 115 million black people? Do you know that according the Hadith if you say Muhammed was black that you are to be killed? Do you know that the image of Satan in Islam is a black man, whilst they go to great lengths to describe how Muhammed was snow white?

Hmm a religion where the holy prophet is a white guy who has black slaves that he calls raisin heads, where the devil is a black guy, and that led to possibly the biggest genocide of black people in human history. Why would I think that was a white supremacist religion "oh Malcolm X" LOL.

That's literally not what I'm saying.

Yes it was. You made out that my videos were posted by white guys and I pointed out that they also included a black bisexual woman, a gay man, a transexual woman etc.

All of your sources are from anti-Islam channels and white guys

Also even if they were all white guys, what difference does that make? Again why should race come into it at all?

But again Tree of Logic, Blaire White etc are ironically LGBT people, ethnic minorities, people that Islam says should either be killed or treated as inferiors, is it any wonder that they hate it?

Yet you are dismissing them as racists for talking out against an ideology that wants to kill or persecute them for who they are! Can you not see how fucked up that is?

Do you feel that Western societies need to change as well?

Well yes, but again why is that relevant to Islam. Western society still had problems during WW2, but that didn't mean it wasn't better than Nazi Germany. So again yes the west is not perfect today and I have criticised it my whole life, but again compared to a medevil death cult its nowhere near as bad.

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