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76Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 10:04 am

So daring. So brave. To fall in line with that same ideology that the BBC has been enamoured with for the past forty years or more. Likewise for popular culture as a whole. Likewise to the doctrine of, nigh, the entire spectrum of western media, politics, and education. Such a thing of elegance to inspire the coming generation to sense a unique and inherent evil to their skin colour.

At this time I'd consider it rather more 'brave' to cover an area of history that does not please the modern-moral-erogenous zone, or else a recitation of those same areas that we've heard on repeat for so long now.

Otherwise - I was second guessing my estimate of a 'terrible episode, historically inaccurate (aside from the obvious), but critically acclaimed,' yet it looks as though I was completely accurate. I honestly thought that there was a limit to how bad something can get whilst still winning over the naïve with a 'correct' moral agenda: apparently not.

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77Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 1:07 pm

Its my day off today, and after hearing all the shit about this episode I couldn't resist. DEAR GOD! This was without doubt one of the worst episodes in the shows history. I still don't think its as bad as Death in Heaven or Twice Upon A Time, but its up there with the absolute worst.

What plot was there? The badguy was so easily defeated it was embarrassing! Why was he wanting to change history? Also where did they send him? Back to the past? Won't he just mess up history again? Or to the future won't he just either mess up history there, or cause more trouble, or find a way to time travel again?

Also the bit where she talked about getting called a Paki was embarrassing. What the fuck do current problems with Islam in the UK have to do with Rosa Parks in anyway shape or form?

Funny thing is Islam historically has persecuted black people to a far greater extent than the West, and its still doing it.

21st century slaves of Islam

a minumum of 28 Million African were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East. Since, at least, 80 percent of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died before reaching the slave market, it is believed that the death toll from 1400 years of Arab and Muslim slave raids into Africa could have been as high as 112 Millions. When added to the number of those sold in the slave markets, the total number of African victims of the trans-Saharan and East African slave trade could be significantly higher than 140 Million people. -- John Allembillah Azumah, author of The Legacy of Arab-Islam in Africa: A Quest for Inter-religious Dialogue

But yeah Islam in the UK and black people in 50s America is exactly the same isn't it? Only if you are a shallow, first year political student who thinks dark skinned people are always the poor victims and you need to white knight (pun intended) for them!

Also Jodie Whittaker is fucking awful, as are her two companions. I'm not surprised that Bradley Walsh is the only one people like, as he is the only one who seems to believe in it.

Jodie just can't deliver any line seriously. I'd never cast her as Romana never mind the Doctor. That's the thing with Missy, as much as I hated her, at least Michelle Gomez is a good actress who could have made a great Rani. Jodie is just embarrassing.

This is so far removed not just from Old Who, but from the revival. Can you imagine this being the same show as David Tennant or Matt Smith? Its not even a sci fi show anymore.

It IS like these cheesy after school shows for kids where the host goes back in time to the vikings and interacts with one of them. Utter tripe.

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78Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 1:58 pm

The whole basis of the episode is flawed.

Rosa Parks herself wasn't a 'hero', she was but one of the more effective adverts used by the movement, an idea - a concept.

She wasn't a hero because heroism is selfless, altruistic: committing a minor crime in self-interest isn't heroic. Respectable in this case, maybe - but not heroic.

Suggesting then that she was a hero because of what she inspired is faulty, too: the match had already been struck by Claudette Colvin, who she was - at best - imitating.

"She changed the world. In fact, she changed the universe". Neither. She was used as fuel to the fire for a political movement that was inevitably going in the direction that it did. 'Changed the universe' - utter shite.

And I'm so happy that children are watching this counterfactual none-sense.


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79Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 2:37 pm

The Telegraph gives a critique of the critics:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2018/10/22/fuss-rosa-parks-doctor-has-always-explored-racism/

'Some of the criticism aimed at the episode, ‘Rosa’, was absurd. One commenter described it as “multicultural propaganda”, while another was apoplectic about the historical inaccuracies (which is perhaps taking things too seriously for a fantasy show).'

Calling something 'absurd' without giving your reasoning is a pretty vacuous way of writing.

The defence for historical inaccuracy is explicitly fallacious. If you're going to give us an 'educational' moral lecture covering a pretty specific area of history, I expect the facts to line up. The sci-fi elements are not expected to be taken into consideration, you know that. This is supposed to educate children.

It is propaganda. 'A concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviour of large numbers of people.' Add to that obvious inaccuracies, an impressionable target audience, an overt agenda in the creators of the episode ... how is this in doubt?

"Loving all the people screaming about how horrid it is for Doctor Who to dare to deal with racism at 7pm on a Sunday. This won't harm your children. Shielding them from the harsh reality of humanity’s failures will."

A misleading account of racism. Propaganda. Implanting erroneous ideas into children's minds which relate strongly to contemporary politics, identity - morality as a whole: is that not harmful?

A child not seeing a poorly-composed and inaccurate history lesson that they already know constitutes 'shielding'.

And, of course, the most significant point: how about teaching them the failures of non-white humans? Rather than every history lesson being about the bad things that white people have done, why not teach them that racism and xenophobia, and worse, are universal amongst all races and nations? Is that not a far more flagrant case of 'shielding'?

The article then gives a shallow read of the show’s references to ‘big’ issues since its inception, mentioning the Daleks and their allegory to the Nazis. Yes, this isn’t comparable. They didn’t actually do a story on the holocaust. Further, if they had – the holocaust was not a controversial reference to modern politics.

Referencing ‘big’ issues isn’t the problem, the issue is when it offers a partisan, inaccurate reflection of ‘reality’ as part of a controversial agenda – alienating and misleading.

It also touches on ‘less-than-enlightened’ attitudes presented in the Classic series. Something that has been discussed at length before, so I will not address it.

‘By the time Doctor Who was rebooted in the mid-Noughties, times had changed, and the series has worked hard to make its casting representative of the national demographic.’

No, that wasn’t the motivation. The motivation was that ‘add more black’ et al. became an adopted ‘virtue’ of the BBC’s self-obsessed. It made them feel more sophisticated.

'But in terms of storylines, it has been perceptive enough to realise that issues of race are still pertinent.’

The opposite. The issues of race are not pertinent at all, only their blindness made it so. There is no legal discrimination based on race ... aside from affirmative action, but I doubt that's where they're going ... and that already revokes its status as a state matter, and its relevance to the Civil Rights movement (keyword: Rights).

‘Two of the Doctor’s assistants, Martha Jones and Bill Potts, suffered discrimination when they stepped back in time, and witnessed different cultural attitudes of English history.’

Yeah, they had in a run in with bad writing. Strawmen, sculpted by people who are guessing historical customs based on the ‘progress’ fallacy. Those were pretty shit too, but they weren’t the foci of the episodes.

‘The Doctor, a renegade himself/herself from the planet Gallifrey, is and always will be, a force for good. ‘Rosa’ was simply the latest example of the show’s plea for tolerance.’

Misunderstanding what the Doctor is, per usual. ‘Tolerance’ here being a buzzword for ‘subscribing to our (non-rational and ever-oscillating) moral standards’. I’ll hazard a guess that presenting an equally negative, if this time accurate, historical account that depicts - say -  Islam, would not be praised under the moniker of ‘tolerant’.

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80Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 3:02 pm

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81Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 3:09 pm

@TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote:The Telegraph gives a critique of the critics:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2018/10/22/fuss-rosa-parks-doctor-has-always-explored-racism/

'Some of the criticism aimed at the episode, ‘Rosa’, was absurd. One commenter described it as “multicultural propaganda”, while another was apoplectic about the historical inaccuracies (which is perhaps taking things too seriously for a fantasy show).'

Calling something 'absurd' without giving your reasoning is a pretty vacuous way of writing.

The defence for historical inaccuracy is explicitly fallacious. If you're going to give us an 'educational' moral lecture covering a pretty specific area of history, I expect the facts to line up. The sci-fi elements are not expected to be taken into consideration, you know that. This is supposed to educate children.

It is propaganda. 'A concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviour of large numbers of people.' Add to that obvious inaccuracies, an impressionable target audience, an overt agenda in the creators of the episode ... how is this in doubt?

"Loving all the people screaming about how horrid it is for Doctor Who to dare to deal with racism at 7pm on a Sunday. This won't harm your children. Shielding them from the harsh reality of humanity’s failures will."

A misleading account of racism. Propaganda. Implanting erroneous ideas into children's minds which relate strongly to contemporary politics, identity - morality as a whole: is that not harmful?

A child not seeing a poorly-composed and inaccurate history lesson that they already know constitutes 'shielding'.

And, of course, the most significant point: how about teaching them the failures of non-white humans? Rather than every history lesson being about the bad things that white people have done, why not teach them that racism and xenophobia, and worse, are universal amongst all races and nations? Is that not a far more flagrant case of 'shielding'?

The article then gives a shallow read of the show’s references to ‘big’ issues since its inception, mentioning the Daleks and their allegory to the Nazis. Yes, this isn’t comparable. They didn’t actually do a story on the holocaust. Further, if they had – the holocaust was not a controversial reference to modern politics.

Referencing ‘big’ issues isn’t the problem, the issue is when it offers a partisan, inaccurate reflection of ‘reality’ as part of a controversial agenda – alienating and misleading.

It also touches on ‘less-than-enlightened’ attitudes presented in the Classic series. Something that has been discussed at length before, so I will not address it.

‘By the time Doctor Who was rebooted in the mid-Noughties, times had changed, and the series has worked hard to make its casting representative of the national demographic.’

No, that wasn’t the motivation. The motivation was that ‘add more black’ et al. became an adopted ‘virtue’ of the BBC’s self-obsessed. It made them feel more sophisticated.

'But in terms of storylines, it has been perceptive enough to realise that issues of race are still pertinent.’

The opposite. The issues of race are not pertinent at all, only their blindness made it so. There is no legal discrimination based on race ... aside from affirmative action, but I doubt that's where they're going ... and that already revokes its status as a state matter, and its relevance to the Civil Rights movement (keyword: Rights).

‘Two of the Doctor’s assistants, Martha Jones and Bill Potts, suffered discrimination when they stepped back in time, and witnessed different cultural attitudes of English history.’

Yeah, they had in a run in with bad writing. Strawmen, sculpted by people who are guessing historical customs based on the ‘progress’ fallacy. Those were pretty shit too, but they weren’t the foci of the episodes..

Excellent post. I was going to run through this shit stain of an article but you did it wonderfully. Its sad though because you could have done an interesting story during this period of American history and yes touched on the racism at that time. I just watched the Marlon Brandon film The Chase after seeing this crapfest and it was a so much more nuanced and in depth look at the problems people in America faced at that time.

I will say its funny how they always try and justify this takeover of DW as "DW is all about change, so all change is good" yet they also claim when it suits them "Oh it was always SJW crap."

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82Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 3:37 pm


So about a 700k drop this time?

That's 1.8m over 3 episodes.

Wonder where it'll find its level?

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83Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 9:47 pm

I hope it bottoms to about 3 million by the end of the season.

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84Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 9:55 pm

The BBC seem keen to use it as a springboard for 'discussion'.

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-45939324

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85Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 10:10 pm

I really should write and thank the BBC for cutting the Doctor's cock and balls off. After suffering through New Poo for so long due a sense of attachment and misplaced loyalty to the character (even though the New Poo Doctor has arguably never been the same character), it's been incredibly easy to drop the thing stone cold as a result of no longer actually having the Doctor in it anymore.

Thanks BBC! Big Grin

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86Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 10:18 pm

People keep PMing me on Facebook with the gory details, as if I'll change my mind and start watching this shit again.

Went through all the NuWho episodes, and it turns out I'd avoided at least 8 or 9 already, so I thought "what's the point?"

BF died as soon as it started cross-contamination between the shows, and most of the New Adventures are self-indulgent fanwank.

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87Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 10:26 pm

BBC talks to itself, twitter, which is now the preferred "it's still popular!" appeal to authority / appeal to crowd fallacy at GB, and the tiny minority of vocal luvvies who interview their children;

-it's all so tiresome.

"Rosa" achieves levels of obnoxiousness the seventh doctor could only dream of. Instead of aaronovitch and all of his anti-English issues, a kind of Who version of Miliband's family, now there is the tone deaf and not very talented Chibnall cranking out exactly what he always has, only with an extra serve of right-on twaddle each time.

As for the lead of this spinoff, she just doesn't have the acting chops.

I don't think the current series will drop right off the cliff back down to Capaldi depths, but over the mandatory three years it will be kept on it might get there. Probably settle in to 2 million odd by 2020.

It's sort of absurd really, but this is the weirdness of compulsory government propaganda licensing combined with the longterm effects of never having properly cleaned out the stalinists from the BBC of the 1930s. A sort of Peter Principle, or in this case Piotr Principle, meant that over representation of blousy homosexuals and outright communists has created a truly horrendous "public broadcaster" which is nothing of the kind. Public it is not, invasive might be the better word.

I have a feeling that if Barry Letts didn't have Terrance Dicks and vice versa this is the kind of garbage that Doctor Who might have strayed into by the 1970s, although Letts always seemed a lot more professional than today's producers. And there was more genuine English loyalty and cultural centredness in the "concerned liberal progressive" Letts type productions.

Rosa could have worked a lot better if the schmaltzy fictional version of the Rosa Parks incident had been balanced by an alien of the week that was melodramatic. Daleks or a Dalek agent is a no brainer, and might have made it a fitting sequel to Genesis. Don't laugh. It's very telling that we all tacitly accept there will never be any "top ten" stories ever again, isn't it?

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88Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 10:27 pm

It has really only been 3 episodes (well 4 since I didn't bother with the character assassination of the First Doctor either) but I'm already viewing the reactions to this thing through this "that's interesting... in a completely irrelevant to me personally" lens.
Freedom tastes good! Big Grin

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89Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 10:29 pm

@iank wrote:It has really only been 3 episodes (well 4 since I didn't bother with the character assassination of the First Doctor either) but I'm already viewing the reactions to this thing through this "that's interesting... in a completely irrelevant to me personally" lens.
Freedom tastes good! Big Grin

Yup, there is nothing hooking anyone in to watch it in terms of "wow look at that creature!" or "bloody hell what the f_ck is going on there?"

Everyone knows EXACTLY what they're gonna get if they watch this shit.

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90Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 11:05 pm

Apparently the important thing is that we have a Doctor who acknowledges her white privilege.

See here.

"Everyone keeps going on"

Dear god and to think Chibbers actually felt that JNT and Pip and Jane were ruining the show LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

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91Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:08 pm

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92Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:17 pm

Series 11 - Page 4 44480985_2163036790393392_2734240162761408512_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr2-2

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93Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:29 pm

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95Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 7:52 pm

Starting to look a bit ominous for the show's long term future - there surely wouldn't be the same surge of curiosity for Bubbles' 2nd series.

In the meantime the silly sods will have to make do with more lesbian art inspired by the man behind Worzel Gummidge and the Noodle Doodle Man!



Last edited by Mott1 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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96Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 8:56 pm

Oooops! Was that another episode I missed?

Oh what a shame, must've forgotten it was on.

Fucking tragic.

How will I live with myself?

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97Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 9:22 pm

Kind of rich reading the slag off of the last episode from Murdoch's shit-rag, I never saw the episode or intend to, but considering The Scum has been the main culprit campaigning for a gender fluid Time Lord every single fucking time the lead part has been up for the offering, they have no room to be complaining about snowflakes.

It's their fucking fault that they fucked up the programme in the first place with their creeping influence over the BBC, which is now absolutely stuffed with Murdoch men.

As for that trailer for the next episode...fuck me, is that the best enticement offer they can give? A piss poor hybrid impersonation of Tennant/Eccleston emoting badly outside a TARDIS?

And to think I thought the promos for McCoy's season 26 were dire at the time, I think "Professor can we go rock climbing? Awwwww!" or Knights in obvious plastic armour body slamming each other have the slight edge over this crud.

How the fuck is ANYONE watching this crap? Obviously the pre-Strictly crowd are pulling quite a few of the numbers in, but the promos and trailers inspire absolutely no inclination whatsoever to tune in.

As Iank observes, it feels strangely liberating giving this utter abberation a complete miss..

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98Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 9:49 pm

@Mott1 wrote:Starting to look a bit ominous for the show's long term future - there surely wouldn't be the same surge of curiosity for Bubbles' 2nd series.

In the meantime the silly sods will have to make do with more lesbian art inspired by the man behind Wurzel Gummidge and the Noodle Doodle Man!

I'd rather 'ship the shit out of Doc and Bradders and Space Tommy Wink

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99Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 9:56 pm

Oh dear, is the party over already? How sad.

Big Grin

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100Series 11 - Page 4 Empty Re: Series 11 on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 10:04 pm

[quote="Mott1"In the meantime the silly sods will have to make do with more lesbian art inspired by the man behind Wurzel Gummidge and the Noodle Doodle Man![/quote]


LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL



"All they ever do is fight all the time, war, war, bloody war. Why can't they have stories about love and peace."

Series 11 - Page 4 Tumblr_pd098ywgC61uxhzgpo1_1280

" Cause its sissy you girly. Dan Dare touches Mekon's bottom. Exciting new story. Batman gooses the Jokers butt crack".

PS I've been called viciously homophobic for not sensing the gay chemistry between Delgado and Pertwee in the past. Big Grin

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