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Scream of the Shalka

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Tanmann
SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe
UncleDeadly
Boofer
Rob Filth
burrunjor
Kaijuko
iank
TiberiusDidNothingWrong
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26Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 31st May 2019, 6:29 pm

ClockworkOcean

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Dick Tater

SomeCallMeEnglishGiraffe wrote:Paul tried to make the 7th Doctor more romantic...
Ugh. The more I hear about the VNA range, the more glad I am that I never bothered with it.

27Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 31st May 2019, 7:01 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Dick Tater

I think the VNAs were just beyond me at age 11. I was used to enjoying the Target novelizations at my local library, and didn't get why the NA's couldn't be as fun and comprehensible as them.

The odd thing is, I had liked Ace, from the little I'd seen of her in Battlefield and Remembrance, so I felt I should've been able to get behind the books if she was in them, but I didn't.

I tried Transit as my first (bought with some WH Smith book tokens from school), since I liked the look of the cover. But I only got so far before having to start again with it. I'm often told that was the worst choice to begin on.

Blood Heat is to this day the only VNA I ever read from start to finish, and frankly was almost more morally warped than Warriors of the Deep, if that's even possible.

I did eventually hear the Love & War Big Finish audio adaptation and I remember thinking it started really well, but lost me when it seemed to rush a crucial romance between Ace and another character (I don't know if the book did it better) and so it seemed to fall flat a bit.

I always got the sense they were a bit of a chore read, that fans were more willing to go through when there was nothing else new on, and because of which they remain difficult reads to this day, only the incentive for finishing them has gone.

28Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 31st May 2019, 8:41 pm

stengos

stengos

I read the first 3 New Adventure books - Timewyrm: Genesys, Exodus and Apocalypse. The only one I remember enjoying was Exodus, written by Terrance Dicks. Nice straightforward story telling. I started the fourth (Revelation) but I found it confusing and difficult to follow so gave up.

So having only liked one of the four I read (or gave up reading) I gave up altogether and didn't buy anymore. The other three weren't the programme I watched as I was growing up and I couldn't see them improving unless Terry was suddenly going to get the contract for every second one.

The covers were generally good to look at though.

29Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 21st June 2019, 6:50 pm

burrunjor

burrunjor

Okay so I watched this again today.

Its okay. It definitely has a lot of terrible Nu Whoisms such as the following.

1/ The Doctor is too mopey and self pitying.

2/ The Doctor HATES guns and soldiers for no reason.

3/ The Doctors eccentric nature is too forced. He regularly refers to himself as eccentric which is something NO genuine eccentric does. Its like Rick "AREN'T I BIT NUTTY EVERYONE!"

4/ Doctor/Companion romance. The Doctor is meant to have been in love with his previous companion who died, and he clearly has feelings for Sophie Okenodo's character. He gets VERY fond of her fast, they stare into each others eyes a lot, her boyfriend gets jealous, the Master more of less says the Doctor likes her, and the Doctor even kisses her. Had it gone on we clearly would have got the standard Nu Who love triangle with the feisty female companion, the Doctor and her cucked boyfriend.

Positive things about it?

1/ The Master. Believe it or not Paul Cornell writes him far more in character than RTD or Mofftwat ever did (that wouldn't be hard.) His Master is not the Doctors friend. Contrary to popular belief the answering machine message is actually meant to be the Doctor and his previous female companion having sex, NOT the Master and the Doctor (though like a cuck Paul said he loved that interpretation.) Its still pathetic, out of character and childish either way of course. Yeah lets hear a character once played by William Hartnell and Jon Pertwee banging his girlfriend on the phone that'll be great LOL LOL LOL LOL

This Master is forced to work with the Doctor against his will, or else he'll be killed which makes for quite an interesting dynamic and there are traces of his disdain for the Doctor and crafty manipulative nature. (At one point he wonders if it would have been better if he had been killed than be forced to live with the Doctor.) You can tell the Doctor merely views him as a tool and doesn't have any affection for him either. Sir Derek Jacobi is also an absolutely inspired choice too. (Again streets ahead of Simm and Gomez.) The design is also more Masterish too with the beard of evil.

2/ The Shalka are actually fantastic monsters. I liked the design, voices and the concept is both a terrifying and interesting one. Monsters who have taken over worlds, but do so in secret to the point where no one has an idea of just how powerful they are. They should definitely have been brought over into the main show.

3/ Great performances from the actors. Richard E Grant is a far better Doctor than Eccelston or Tennant, Sophie is great too. (Always been a big fan. She looks great and I LOVE her voice and accent.)

Overall its okay. Paul Cornell is in all fairness a decent enough writer. (I've always felt that the shit parts of Human Nature were mostly rewrites from RTD.) He just never had a good understanding of the Doctors character in the slightest and it shows badly here.

Still with other writers and no showrunner system this could have led to a good series and its best legacy is that it now offers us an alternate sequel that can allow Nu Poo to be wiped from history. IMO this is the true sequel and canon. (I'm glad that Richard E Grant's Doctor says Andy Warhol tried to draw "all 9 of me" meaning that it can't be retconned as a later Doctor after Jodie by Nu Who apologists.)

30Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 22nd June 2019, 7:09 am

Kaijuko

Kaijuko

"3/ Great performances from the actors. Richard E Grant is a far better Doctor than Eccelston or Tennant, Sophie is great too. (Always been a big fan. She looks great and I LOVE her voice and accent.)"


Agreed, neither Eccelston nor Tennant convinced me that the character they were portraying was an ancient, alien time-traveller and the same person as Hartnell, Troughton etc.  Even in a poorly animated 'cartoon' REG was far more engaging.  Sophie Okonedo was fine in 'Shalka but alas, I simply can't forget/forgive her diabolical performance as Liz 10, the cockney Queen in 'The Beast Below'.

If you're interested, Cornell's novelization of 'The Scream Of The Shalka' is worth checking out - I actually read this before seeing the animated version.

31Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 22nd June 2019, 9:04 am

iank

iank

Canon ends with Survival. All else is fan-fic.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

32Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 22nd June 2019, 9:52 am

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
The Grand Master

I've never seen it. It honestly looks and sounds shit to me.

33Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 22nd June 2019, 10:09 am

burrunjor

burrunjor

iank wrote:Canon ends with Survival. All else is fan-fic.

Absolutely 100 percent right.

"Come on Ace we've got work to do." Is the end.

However as I've said I don't like New Who being left as the only sequel as then it looks like it is all one show.

Scream of the Shalka, the books, Death Comes To Time however all show very different interpretations of what came next after McCoy, so IMO that kind of turns True Who into being like ACD's Sherlock Holmes, IE the only true version with all others just being unofficial sequels that you can choose which if any are real.

All we need is another alternate sequel on tv, but Scream and Death Comes To Time for now at least already make New Who into just another interpretation.

34Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 22nd June 2019, 1:09 pm

burrunjor

burrunjor

I just found this hilarious and damning interview from Lawrence Miles about Paul Cornell.

Obviously as much as I dislike Cornell I'll take this with a pinch of salt as Miles is a very biased source against the Fitzroy Crowd. Still a lot of the things he says here do clearly have a ring of truth to them.

At one point he complains that because he slagged off Kate Orman as a writer, they tried to make out that he just hates women in general and doesn't want them near DW. Gee where have I heard that type of argument before?

Its hilarious that those tactics were rightfully being called out back in the 90s when they were confined to just a pub, but somehow they have spilled out to the entire fandom now LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Paul Cornell's criticism of you was that you'd broken the Doctor Who writer's code by criticizing other writers. Fair, do you think?

Fair. But I don't remember signing any official agreement when Virgin signed me up. Nobody told me about this code“. The thing is… I've got a reputation as one of the most arrogant people in the whole of fandom, and it's kind of funny. If you want to know what “arrogant” means, my God… you make a criticism of Gary Russell or Paul Cornell or someone, they never forget and they never forgive you for it. The word “bitch” isn't big enough for what these people do. And you should hear the abuse I've had over the last couple of years. But unlike 90% of the other writers, it doesn't really bother me.

I still hang around with people who've been completely insulting. The problem is, I don't have a sense of diplomacy, that's all. I don't have any tact. The other writers bitch about each other behind their backs, whereas I just come out and say what I think. That's the problem Paul has with me, I think. Oh, and I don't have tits.” …? I've tried to be nice to him. I've always tried. But if he can't shag you, he's just not interested. The only sure-fire way to get on that man's good side is by having XX chromasomes.

He's never had any patience with me at all. That was the really funny thing about that interview he did, where he started slagging me off. He said the politics in INTERFERENCE reminded him of a seventeen-year-old virgin“. It was just so telling, because what he's actually saying there, when it comes down to it, is: “I'm wiser than you are because I've shagged more birds.” I mean, fair enough, he probably has had sex with more people than I have. His exploits are far more legendary than mine. I just thought that was a very funny attitude, coming from someone who calls me a misogynist.”

Why does he think you're a misogynist?

Because of my fanzine. The one I give out at the Tavern. I keep taking the piss out of Kate Orman, so in Shagger Cornell's world that means I hate women. It's the way things work on his planet. All right, let's get down to basics here. We're talking about a man who spends his life acting like a caring, sharing new man just so he can get into the pants of as many women as possible. And this isn't just me being bitter, some of Paul's own friends told me this about him even before I'd met the man. In a court of law, the character witnesses would be lined up around thebuilding three-deep. And I'm a misogynist for having a go at Kate Orman.


There was recently a big fight about the Paul Cornell interview on the newsgroups, in which Kate Orman and Jon Blum got personally involved. Is there a kind of power-block thing going on here? Paul and his friends against you and your friends?


I don't have any friends. Not among the writers. You've got to remember, the writers are so stuck-up it's funny, they do a Cornell on you if you even dare to suggest there was anything wrong with their last book. The readers aren't like that. When the debate started on the newsgroup… was it Jade Pagoda, somwehere like that?… the way I heard it, while the authors were getting uptight about it all the readers were just egging them on, going yeah, go on, have a fight“. The readers like seeing the writers twat each other, because they know that, by and large, the writers need a good slap every now and then. It's like that fanzine of mine. Cornell reads it and starts whining about how nasty it is, but as soon as he turns his back all his friends start giggling about it. I should know, I've seen them. And after Paul turned on me, I specifically went out of my way to make sure the next issue of the fanzine was as offensive and unacceptable as possible. Issue eight was completely horrible, it was going too far even by my standards. But nobody has ever complained about it on the newsgroups. Why? Because everyone who got a copy thinks it's funny, and they're just not telling the other writers about it. As for the Kate Orman thing… I think she and Jon take the whole fandom thing much too seriously, really. I've been calling Mark Clapham an arse to his face for ages, but when I said it on the internet Kate started going on about how it was a shame that a professional writer should start flaming other ppeople blah blah blah etcetera etcetera. It's nothing, it's trivia. God knows enough people have come up to me and started telling me what's wrong with INTERFERENCE.

35Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 22nd June 2019, 11:19 pm

iank

iank

Sounds about right.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKNC69I8Mq_pJfvBireybsg

36Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 23rd June 2019, 12:12 am

ClockworkOcean

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Dick Tater

"Bending the knee", "serving and reigning", "the writer's code"...

God, what a pretentious bellend.

37Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 23rd June 2019, 5:03 pm

burrunjor

burrunjor

ClockworkOcean wrote:"Bending the knee", "serving and reigning", "the writer's code"...

God, what a pretentious bellend.

One thing I've noticed is that people who react this way to fan criticisms always deep down know that their version is shit so they have to silence disenters.

Look at say Micheal Keaton as Batman, or Hugh Jackman as Wolverine, or Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman in contrast.

There was a huge controversy over all 3 being cast. Keaton was physically a poor match for Bruce, and was known as a comedy actor. People felt it was going to be Adam West mark 2 and they wanted a serious Batman. There were thousands of complaints, people sending in letters demanding Keaton be fired.

Keaton kept a dignified silence however because he knew his performance would speak for itself and it did. He was massively successful and even the few people who didn't like him ironically often say its because he was TOO dark.

Gal Gadot similarly people thought she was too skinny, didn't have enough acting experience, but she proved them wrong. Hugh Jackman? Again too skinny, only known for broadway, too much of a nice guy etc. His performance however spoke for itself.

The Fitzroy Crowd however know that their versions of DW don't hold up. Unlike Keaton and Jackman who diffuse the "he's going to play Batman as a comedy character, he's going to make Wolverine a big sappy nice guy etc" the second they show up on screen, ALL of the criticisms of New Who and their DW novels do hold up.

That they've thrown away all the aspects of the Doctors character, are pandering to a hateful minority, are focusing on soap opera tedium instead of sci fi, that they OP the Doctor, whilst undermining him for his companion etc. These are all evident right away.

So the Fitzroy crowd have to establish a pecking order, have to slander their critics as sexists, homophobes, basement dwellers, and peddle lies like "DW is all about change" to silence the critics.

IMO that's a good test if something is going to be a shit adaptation, how the stars react to any backlash. If its like Jackman, Keaton and Gadot, you're on safe ground. They know they are staying true to the character and the fans complaints will look foolish when they see them on screen.

If they start crying about "MUH MISORGENNY" "FRIGHTENED OF STRONG WAHMAN" "INTERNET BASTARDS" Then you know they are scared that their critics are right. Another example of this was Ghostbusters 2016. Its stars clearly knew their movie was full of shit and about as far away from GB as its possible so they adopted the Jodie, Fitzroy tactics.

38Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 23rd June 2019, 11:50 pm

Boofer

Boofer

Has anyone read any of Kate Orman's stuff? Is it any good?

39Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 24th June 2019, 9:40 am

burrunjor

burrunjor

ClockworkOcean wrote:
burrunjor wrote:Absolutely 100 percent right.

"Come on Ace we've got work to do." Is the end.

However as I've said I don't like New Who being left as the only sequel as then it looks like it is all one show.

Scream of the Shalka, the books, Death Comes To Time however all show very different interpretations of what came next after McCoy, so IMO that kind of turns True Who into being like ACD's Sherlock Holmes, IE the only true version with all others just being unofficial sequels that you can choose which if any are real.

All we need is another alternate sequel on tv, but Scream and Death Comes To Time for now at least already make New Who into just another interpretation.

I find Death Comes To Time by far the most compelling, if only because the Doctor's death actively precludes the possibility that any of the others (including NuWho, most crucially) are canon. It was specifically made for fans who didn't like the TV movie and wanted an alternate ending, back in the good old days when the BBC didn't hate its own license fee payers. As it was produced by the BBC rather than Big Finish, the Fitzroy Tavern shitheads had nothing to do with it. Dan Freeman was never part of the Fitzroy clique and is far from politically correct, spending much of his time taking the piss out of hipsters as the frontman of a parody band.

The story isn't perfect, but it's epic and engaging throughout. A significant period of time is implied to have passed since Survival, so the notion that its more godlike depiction of the Time Lords is completely incompatible with TruWho doesn't hold water to me. Any number of things could have happened in the intervening years, and I have a few theories of my own. McCoy gives one of his best ever performances, particularly at the end of the final episode, and Tannis is a suitably dangerous final adversary for the Doctor. The cast are great all round.

There's also the added bonus of being able to tell SJWs that my headcanon ends with a woman inheriting the TARDIS and watching their heads explode as they try to determine whether Ace should regenerate into Brian Blessed for the sake of LGBT representation.

Fair enough argument for Death Comes To Time. I am so glad that these alternate sequels exist as they really do make New Who feel like the non Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Holmes stories. You won't find licensed alternatives to any of the first 7 (apart from the Cushing movies which are said to not be part of the tv series.)

And of course Ace should regenerate into a man. You are demonstrating your transphobia. (Remember what Paul Cornell said. Anyone who doesn't like their favourite character changing gender is exactly the type of person who would turn on their family member for changing gender.)

Brian Blessed shouldn't play her though. Brian Blessed is tough and aggressive like Ace was, and DW is all about change. Remember what Paul Cornell said? Every single era of DW has to smash up every single thing that came before. (Leaving aside the fact that the TARDIS is still a blue box, the theme, the Daleks etc.)

We have to learn to bend the knee remember and honour the writers code, which stipulates that Paul Cornell is right at all times, even if he says there is a gay subtext between Tom Baker and Magnus Greel. (Technically by his logic there is as Greel was originally written as the Master. Only last minute rewrites made him a different villain, but most of his dialogue was unchanged like when he comments on his regeneration. So yeah, Greel and Tom have UST then LOL )

Personally I think that David Mitchell should play Ace. He's a great actor, it would be something different and we all know that all change is good, and why does Ace need a vagina? Also it will make all of the women who looked up to Ace as a role model's heads explode and I love upsetting those entitled, selfish bitches who've never fucked any man and will die alone.

40Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 24th June 2019, 9:42 am

burrunjor

burrunjor

Boofer wrote:Has anyone read any of Kate Orman's stuff? Is it any good?


No I haven't, which is why I haven't slagged it off, but ultimately I can't imagine its any good. Since she follows all of the Fitzroy crowd's mantra of "all change is good" then it will most likely be more of the same shit.

41Scream of the Shalka - Page 2 Empty Re: Scream of the Shalka 6th July 2019, 8:58 pm

HenriDucard89

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Mental canon: he's after McGann and Hurt never happened but all off NuWho is of a seperate pocket universe

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