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851Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 10:47

shan164


I would be interested to see a proper academic analysis as to why the audience dropped as much as it did when it did.

852Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 11:07

shan164


@burrunjor wrote:

I really don't see it that way and I also keep in mind that not only did they make a lot of the show as they went along, I very much doubt they thought about it as much as a lot of people do now.

One thing I noticed a long time ago was that it seemed like the Doctor was aging backwards, with each successive regeneration more often than not seeming younger than the previous. They all but hung a lampshade on that when the First Doctor met the Fifth.

Meanwhile, all the the Time Lords on Gallifrey were on the old side and the older the character, the older the actor tended to be. I'm sure the production side of things was just find older people to play the more important senior people on Gallifrey.

Actually they did in the sense that they had a concrete idea of who the Doctor was and they stuck within it.

For the first regeneration they said that they wanted to make him different but not too different.

Pertwee meanwhile said that it was important for him to play the role as an asexual grandfather as that's who the Doctor was.

Tom Baker said that the role was the most limited he had ever played as there were so many things he couldn't do as then he wouldn't seem like the Doctor anymore.

Peter Davison, Colin Baker, and McCoy all said that they tried to amalgate aspects of previous Doctors, and watched their predecessors after being cast to get an idea of who the Doctor overall was, and see what they could do within those limits.

Terrance Dicks said that the single most important thing was not to change the Doctors character too much and Bob Holmes agreed with him.

Here from Bob Holmes biography, A Life in Words.

Bob Holmes wrote:I wrote the Fifth Doctor in much the same way as I did his predecessors. After all the Doctor is always the same character. His body changes, his manners and idiosyncrasies alter, but at the bottom he remains the same person.

Terrance Dicks wrote:It must have been at a change over time for the Doctor, and he'd (Bob Holmes) been asked to do a story next season, but he wasn't absolutely certain who the Doctor was going to be. And I said "isn't that tough", and Bob said. "Not really, the Doctors always the Doctor." And that of course is perfectly true.

Terry Nation always said EXACTLY the same thing as Bob Holmes (bare in mind Nation and Holmes not only wrote some of the most beloved stories, but also more episodes than any other two writers.)

Finally JNT also agreed with this sentiment, to the point where he made all three of his actors grow their hair out long.

So yes there has always been a concrete idea of who the Doctor is. Basically they always treated him as the same character, and just let the actor interpret him in a new way, as long as they didn't change him too much.

Its just common sense when you think about it.

If everything about the Doctor changes, then why do all the Doctors not tell us their name? Why do they all still want to travel? Why do they all have the same morality? Why do they all have a similar dress sense? Why do they all have a fondness for earth?

Simple because he couldn't just be anyone. Now again given that he has been a man for 50 years, all of his relationships have been from a male perspective, he's always been written and played as a man by default, its really not ridiculous to say that this is too big a change, and no longer feels like the same character.

After all men and women are different. Equal yes, but different. So with this in mind why is gender suddenly an irrelevant thing to change, yet the length of the characters hair, and the fact that he liked frock coats, and his love life, were all seen as things that can never be changed, but a tiny, little fact like his gender isn't?

Again though its the awful way its been implemented that's made everybody angry, but you can see how its always going to be a bigger change.

I also don't agree that its a case of Time Lords are more conservative so that's why they won't change.

To start with the Master was a sexist. He'd be the last person to want to become a girl. Also why did the Doctor become a guy 13 times? Even when he turned from Tennant to Matt. He was on his last life and didn't think might as well try being a woman now?

Also given how jarring it is, given the political baggage it brings, I still don't see why you'd want to do it when you've got Romana and Susan, and Jenny there, each of whom could carry their own series?  

I hadn't forgotten about this, I had a response planned which I need to get out of the way before the new series starts broadcasting and I need to go subterranean until it's over and I can get a copy of the whole thing to watch in one sitting from the library or something.

So, I'll be doing that shortly over a couple of posts or so.

853Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 12:40

Cunnus Maximus

Cunnus Maximus
Barbara Broccolli takes thinly-veiled swipe at DoctHER Who and the character gender switch trend.

LOL LOL LOL

NB: The red text is the bit the BBC omitted from the article. No surprise there.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45769767

BB wrote:“Bond is male,” she said. “He’s a male character. He was written as a male and I think he’ll probably stay as a male.

“And that’s fine. We don’t have to turn male characters into women.Let’s just create more female characters and make the story fit those female characters.

854Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 13:03

Cunnus Maximus

Cunnus Maximus
Then there's Will Gompertz's schizoid review, which gives the impression he's lying to himself.

He couldn't even muster a 5* review for the BBC's supposedly 5* star product.

Wilhelm Gumhertz wrote:I'm in the former camp, but not without one small reservation. These are early days, she has another nine episodes to fully flesh out her version of The Doctor, but at this stage the character is a little too jolly and friendly, which makes building up dramatic tension almost impossible.

Such a small reservation, Willy.

Even Gompertz's usual florid fluff can't hide his actual disappointment.

This passage is particularly savage,

Willy Bumhurts wrote:David Tennant, who strikes me as the most similar to Whittaker's take on the role, was able to change mood in an instant: from class clown to a deadly serious galaxy-saving leader.

She is yet to show that tonal transition from light to dark.

On those occasions when she does dispense with the flippant asides for a more profound thought, her Doctor tends to come across more like a Sunday-school teacher than a masterful rhetorician who can inspire and intimidate in equal measure.

He then lets slip his true feelings, which come across more of an expression of vain hope than anything prophetic.

Whill Weethon wrote:It would be good to see them challenge the concept of science fiction and push it beyond the hackneyed and obvious, in the way Charlie Brooker has re-thought the dystopian novel in the shape of his TV series Black Mirror, which focuses on 21st century concerns.

855Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 13:07

shan164


I saw that article before about James Bond. There is one obvious difference between the two characters, though.

856Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 14:58

burrunjor

burrunjor
@shan164 wrote:I saw that article before about James Bond. There is one obvious difference between the two characters, though.

I'd say that obvious difference is actually reason why you shouldn't change the Doctors gender more than Bond.

All the different Doctors are meant to be the same character. So you should be more careful not to break the chain.

With characters like Bond and Sherlock Holmes, and Batman however, all the different versions are literally different people so one being crap won't affect the others. It wouldn't make any difference to the Bale Batman if Ben Affleck had sucked. Have a female Batman for all I care. Hell it might be a lot of fun as a one off (not if the SJWs stuck in anti men shit, or made out it was going to finally give women a hero to look up to. When it comes to giving women representation, there can be no substitute for an original iconic female hero like Leela, Xena, and Buffy who can stand on her own two feet.)

With the Doctor however introducing it that he was always gender neutral, or always in love with the Master, invalidates the previous versions.

That though I think is the problem with New Who overall. It should have been a remake as it was so different from the start, and if had been then I don't think any of us would have minded. Not saying we'd like Death in Heaven or Love and Monsters, but it wouldn't have angered any of us per se.

However the makers of New Who wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to link it to the old and hoover up its loyal viewers, and fans, but they didn't want to actually bother trying to write the Classic era Doctor or Master, so they adopted this bullshit" Doctor Who is about change, so all change is good mantra", and self loathing fanboys fell for it, out of fear of being labelled a sad "ming mong" fan.

857Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 15:02

burrunjor

burrunjor
Boofer wrote:Then there's Will Gompertz's schizoid review, which gives the impression he's lying to himself.

He couldn't even muster a 5* review for the BBC's supposedly 5* star product.

Wilhelm Gumhertz wrote:I'm in the former camp, but not without one small reservation. These are early days, she has another nine episodes to fully flesh out her version of The Doctor, but at this stage the character is a little too jolly and friendly, which makes building up dramatic tension almost impossible.

Such a small reservation, Willy.

Even Gompertz's usual florid fluff can't hide his actual disappointment.

This passage is particularly savage,

Willy Bumhurts wrote:David Tennant, who strikes me as the most similar to Whittaker's take on the role, was able to change mood in an instant: from class clown to a deadly serious galaxy-saving leader.

She is yet to show that tonal transition from light to dark.

On those occasions when she does dispense with the flippant asides for a more profound thought, her Doctor tends to come across more like a Sunday-school teacher than a masterful rhetorician who can inspire and intimidate in equal measure.

He then lets slip his true feelings, which come across more of an expression of vain hope than anything prophetic.

Whill Weethon wrote:It would be good to see them challenge the concept of science fiction and push it beyond the hackneyed and obvious, in the way Charlie Brooker has re-thought the dystopian novel in the shape of his TV series Black Mirror, which focuses on 21st century concerns.


LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

858Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 15:02

shan164


I've seen people make the distinction in talking about the Doctor mentioning James Bond and they make it clear they get the difference between a non-human space alien who can change his appearance and structure down to the cellular level on a periodic basis and James Bond, who's none of those things and can't do any of those other things either.

I suspect that might have at least something to do with why in relation to wanting an actress to ever play the part, the push for the former has been somewhat greater than the latter.

859Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 15:07

shan164


As for David Tennant, I can certainly say that he was very good at bringing the lighthearted frivolity to the part but those times he turned dark, he could be downright terrifying. Never quite saw Matt Smith's version of the Doctor being able to pull off the scary like that.

860Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 15:16

Cunnus Maximus

Cunnus Maximus
Please point out the moments when DT terrified you, SHan164

The only thing that terrified me about Tennant was his wacky arse routine. Mainly because I'd shrink and cringe so much that I feared reaching my personal Schwarzschild radius.

861Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 15:48

shan164


Well, it's relative to the show. I'm not putting it up there with the terror rating of the works of Dario Argento or Lucio Fulci or anything like that.

But there were times when he dropped the fun-loving exterior and got really quiet and you knew some bad stuff was about to go down. Family of Blood/Human Nature was one I can think of right off the bat.

Probably part of why he was supposedly chosen for and so successful as the Purple Man in Jessica Jones (so I hear, haven't seen it yet).

862Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 17:29

Mott1


Tennant wasn't terrifying to me, personally. When he tried to be he kept doing that overly-long introduction to the threat he was about to make, then just started yelling (that may have been the writing/direction as much as him).

863Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 17:44

shan164


Well, he didn't do it very often which is why I thought it was very effective when it happened (as in, oh here we go). Peter Capaldi was very effective in a different way, he almost always looked like he was a hair-trigger away from giving you a right good kicking.

864Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 21:19

burrunjor

burrunjor
IMO Tennant's Doctors morality was a total fucking joke.

One minute he was condemning aliens to an eternity of torture the next he was refusing to shoot one psychotic, mass murderer even if it would save trillions of lives.




He wasn't the Doctor, he was an overemotional hypocrite IMO.

I'd still take him above Jodie and Peter mind, but still they really didn't establish a proper, concrete characterisation for the Doctor.

865Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 6th October 2018, 22:11

iank

iank
@burrunjor wrote:
@shan164 wrote:I saw that article before about James Bond. There is one obvious difference between the two characters, though.

I'd say that obvious difference is actually reason why you shouldn't change the Doctors gender more than Bond.

All the different Doctors are meant to be the same character. So you should be more careful not to break the chain.

With characters like Bond and Sherlock Holmes, and Batman however, all the different versions are literally different people so one being crap won't affect the others. It wouldn't make any difference to the Bale Batman if Ben Affleck had sucked. Have a female Batman for all I care. Hell it might be a lot of fun as a one off (not if the SJWs stuck in anti men shit, or made out it was going to finally give women a hero to look up to. When it comes to giving women representation, there can be no substitute for an original iconic female hero like Leela, Xena, and Buffy who can stand on her own two feet.)

With the Doctor however introducing it that he was always gender neutral, or always in love with the Master, invalidates the previous versions.

That though I think is the problem with New Who overall. It should have been a remake as it was so different from the start, and if had been then I don't think any of us would have minded. Not saying we'd like Death in Heaven or Love and Monsters, but it wouldn't have angered any of us per se.

However the makers of New Who wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to link it to the old and hoover up its loyal viewers, and fans, but they didn't want to actually bother trying to write the Classic era Doctor or Master, so they adopted this bullshit" Doctor Who is about change, so all change is good mantra", and self loathing fanboys fell for it, out of fear of being labelled a sad "ming mong" fan.

Exactly. I love Elementary, and I have no issue with Lucy Liu's Watson. But then, they're not trying to convince me she used to be Edward Hardwicke. LOL

866Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 07:05

DeadManRising

DeadManRising
It's finally here, boys.

After almost a whole year of repetitive ranting and pointless speculation, the glorious day has finally arrived.

Who here will be joining me tonight to witness the historic premiere of the first ever series of Nurse Who?

I can literally feel the raw energy and excitement just radiating off the screen as I skim through all the ever so happy and incredibly optimistic posts here.

867Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 09:47

iank

iank
Queensland is so excited that, apart from the tiny listing, there isn't a single mention of the new series, let alone the "history making" Castrated Doctor, in the entire Sunday Mail TV guide for this week. LOL

868Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 10:50

burrunjor

burrunjor
@DeadManRising wrote:It's finally here, boys.

After almost a whole year of repetitive ranting and pointless speculation, the glorious day has finally arrived.

Who here will be joining me tonight to witness the historic premiere of the first ever series of Nurse Who?

I can literally feel the raw energy and excitement just radiating off the screen as I skim through all the ever so happy and incredibly optimistic posts here.

I won't be watching, but I'll be here afterwards to enjoy the rants. Big Grin I wish I'd never watched Twice Upon A Time TBH.

869Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 13:18

bryanbraddock

bryanbraddock
@DeadManRising wrote:It's finally here, boys.

After almost a whole year of repetitive ranting and pointless speculation, the glorious day has finally arrived.

Who here will be joining me tonight to witness the historic premiere of the first ever series of Nurse Who?

lol na thanks.
nuwho has never been real doctor who to me, haven't watched in over 10 years and I'm not going to start now just because they cut the doctor's cock off and made him talk like bubbles from ab fab.

870Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 13:25

shan164


Looks like I've left further comments a bit late to avoid the start of the season and since I want to avoid spoilers before I see the whole thing in one sitting, I guess I'll see you all next year after the special, then.

871Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 14:47

Cunnus Maximus

Cunnus Maximus
I think the recaps and reactions on here are going to be much more entertaining than the actual episode.

Then again, madness caused by total sensory deprivation looks more appealing to me than ce soir's offering.

It's a no from me.

872Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 14:59

Arthur Stengos

Arthur Stengos
To be honest I don’t give a flying fuck that the new Doctor is a woman because this excuse for Dr Who isn’t the same show I loved when growing up. Since it’s returned in 2005 it’s just been a complete piss take of the original and it’s a foregone conclusion that this was going to happen.

I might watch this shit if there is nothing else on just out of curiosity but I know it will be a cringe worthy experience judging by clips of the new female Doctor I’ve seen so far. Somehow I know Judy Whittaker is going to be an annoying cunt. The show is a complete travesty now and has been since 2005.

873Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 16:17

Rick Deckard 2.0

Rick Deckard 2.0
I've stuck with the show post 2005 and tuned in every week but I just can't bring myself to watch tonight.

Going to continue my assault on 80s Who instead but I'll swing by for the aftermath comments. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil



Last edited by Rick Deckard 2.0 on 7th October 2018, 16:18; edited 1 time in total

874Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 16:17

Zarius

Zarius
The episode has apparently leaked, here's the theme

https://vocaroo.com/i/s07Ye76loJaY

875Series 11 - Page 35 Empty Re: Series 11 on 7th October 2018, 16:25

Mott1


It's a 'Not' from Mott.

There were days I used to endure the worst Nu Who could throw at me so I could rant out a review, but I now feel the show just wants to jump on the MeToo bandwagon and stay there. Not for me.

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