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Male Suicide

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1Male Suicide Empty Male Suicide on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 6:35 pm

Rawkuss

Rawkuss
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49460577

A problem that needs to be highlighted and addressed.

2Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 6:47 pm

#BeKind

#BeKind
@Rawkuss wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49460577

A problem that needs to be highlighted and addressed.

MOAR LIKE CELBRATED AND ENCOURAGED LOL  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

IF ONLY IT HAPENNED MORE OFTEN
Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

https://doctorwhofeministfront.tumblr.com

3Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 7:32 pm

TiberiusDidNothingWrong

TiberiusDidNothingWrong
Dick Tater
I do love that the common heard explanation for this is itself usually conveyed in an insulting manner, something like, 'men are too brutish/stupid to seek help'.

I only see suicide rates (proportionally) increasing with time though, for both sexes.

4Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 10:19 pm

iank

iank
As with everything, something only becomes a major problem when it starts affecting women.

5Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 10:28 pm

Cunnus Maximus

Cunnus Maximus
I'll kill myself at some point.

No way am I going to sit through the pain and misery of decline. Fuck that shit.

6Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 2:39 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
This page suggests some novel options.

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=manly_suicide

7Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sat 07 Sep 2019, 5:41 am

Ronnie

Ronnie
@TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote:I do love that the common heard explanation for this is itself usually conveyed in an insulting manner, something like, 'men are too brutish/stupid to seek help'.

Who says that?
If that's true, it's simplistic nonsense. 'brutish' men (which in itself is a stereotype) don't tend to commit suicide. If they're 'brutish' then they don't give  a fuck, anyway.
It's sensitive people, (be they male or female) who tend towards depression and ultimately suicide.
As for being 'too stupid' to seek help... it's often down to social conditioning. Men are often conditioned to perceive depression as a kind of 'weakness', and the negative social conditioning often doesn't allow them to admit to themselves that they have these self-perceived, societally driven 'weaknesses', let alone admit it to anyone else, or allow anyone else to see these 'weaknesses'. Sometimes, the stresses that such men place on themselves is too much, and results in suicide.
That's not the result of their own stupidity, but it IS the result of a society that has placed a narrow-minded conditioning on what men are supposed to be, how they are supposed to act, and what constitutes 'maleness', and THAT is stupid.

8Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sat 07 Sep 2019, 5:57 am

Rawkuss

Rawkuss
What Ronnie said.

9Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sat 07 Sep 2019, 5:52 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
At the risk of repeating myself, the problem I think is ironically much more 'new age' than to do with old fashioned, traditional notions of masculinity.

Because our society has become from the Yoga clubs to workplace team-building exercises, so fixated by the idea of mental wellness and happiness, it's become a kind of cruel demand of conformity to be happy and chirpy.

It's become in effect our full-time job. And those who are unhappy tend to get looked down on as having a bad state of wellness and thus can be dismissed as undesirables with an internal problem, ruining it for everyone else (you can even see this attitude in the RTD sycophants towards fans with complaints).

The one thing I learned in my 20's is that our supposedly more empathizing age where we pride ourselves on our consciousness to sensitivities is how we like to see ourselves nowadays, but in truth it's usually a crock of shit where everyone's talking the same talk but not really moved to really summon more than a condescending contempt for the sensitive man with issues.

I'm also very much of the mind that old resilient masculinity has always been our backbone, and it's no surprise that once feminism started vilifying and dismantling that, suicide rates for men have risen. I don't think we were really meant to function any other way, and trying (as I did) to be what a post-feminist, womanist society wants men to be, is just leading to a world of hurt.

10Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sat 07 Sep 2019, 11:50 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
Chief Caretaker
I pushed the self destruction button last year. I honestly didn't care enough about my life to look after myself. I had no real purpose and the only thing I really wanted was unattainable. I'm in a slightly better place now but sometimes I feel so lost and confused in the world. I feel like an unwanted guest at a party. The desire to leave is overwhelming sometimes.

11Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 12:08 am

TiberiusDidNothingWrong

TiberiusDidNothingWrong
Dick Tater
I've been mildly 'given up on life' at times during my worst - days without eating, washing, sleeping, then weeks were I'd try to sleep 24 hours a day every day.

I would also try biological and psychological self-experiments that didn't have any lasting negative side effects but could probably be called self-destructive.

Even at my nadir I never understood suicide though tbh.

12Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 12:21 am

Rawkuss

Rawkuss
Commander Maxil wrote:I pushed the self destruction button last year. I honestly didn't care enough about my life to look after myself. I had no real purpose and the only thing I really wanted was unattainable.  I'm in a slightly better place now but sometimes I feel so lost and confused in the world. I  feel like an unwanted guest at a party. The desire to leave is overwhelming sometimes.

Sorry to hear that. Hope things improve soon and that you find a purpose for your life.

13Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 1:50 am

Tanmann

Tanmann
@TiberiusDidNothingWrong wrote:Even at my nadir I never understood suicide though tbh.

The only way I can describe it from my experience is a paradoxical but overwhelming state of mind where you're actually more afraid and terrified of the shame than you are of death, and the shame manifests itself in an overriding belief that your life and existence was a waste and a mistake. It's like you convince yourself against what you see as your limited imprisoning options to escape that shame or situation, that ending your life is imperative. There becomes a spiralling process where you ruminate on and accumulate every reason you can think of to convince and persuade yourself to do so.

At the time with me (back in 2013), fear and the survival instinct won out, but I can only imagine for a lot of men it easily could've not.

14Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 2:48 am

Ronnie

Ronnie
@Tanmann wrote:At the risk of repeating myself, the problem I think is ironically much more 'new age' than to do with old fashioned, traditional notions of masculinity.

Because our society has become from the Yoga clubs to workplace team-building exercises, so fixated by the idea of mental wellness and happiness, it's become a kind of cruel demand of conformity to be happy and chirpy.

It's become in effect our full-time job. And those who are unhappy tend to get looked down on as having a bad state of wellness and thus can be dismissed as undesirables with an internal problem, ruining it for everyone else (you can even see this attitude in the RTD sycophants towards fans with complaints).

The one thing I learned in my 20's is that our supposedly more empathizing age where we pride ourselves on our consciousness to sensitivities is how we like to see ourselves nowadays, but in truth it's usually a crock of shit where everyone's talking the same talk but not really moved to really summon more than a condescending contempt for the sensitive man with issues.

I'm also very much of the mind that old resilient masculinity has always been our backbone, and it's no surprise that once feminism started vilifying and dismantling that, suicide rates for men have risen. I don't think we were really meant to function any other way, and trying (as I did) to be what a post-feminist, womanist society wants men to be, is just leading to a world of hurt.

You make some interesting points Tannmann, but I disagree with some of your conclusions whilst acknowledging the existence of the some of the problems you outline.
In my opinion, what you describe as 'new age' is a symptom of the underlying problem, or a reaction to it, but it's not the root of the problem. But before I get to that; What IS 'new age'? Their are many different strands of thought, that could be described as 'New Age', but they are far from all the same.
My personal angle on shaping and dealing with my own mental wellbeing comes from what might loosely be termed as spiritual psychology, after many years of reading books covering different attitudes and approaches to depression and mental health. Many would consider it to be 'New Age', because it rejects the trap of traditional social conditioning. But it does so in a way that completely bypasses the current obsession with what you would describe as SJW/feminism or whatever. Because such notions that we see in today's overly politicised school of 'correctness', can be every bit as reactionary as that which they think they are 'fighting' against. The extreme 'SJW' cause is a symptom of problem which that cause in itself doesn't understand, and anyone on either side of this coin is simply reacting (or overreacting) to something which they can only see from outside the cage derived from social conditioning from which they imprison themselves.
To put it succinctly, neither side is thinking outside the box.
'masculinity has always been our backbone', is a response that is just as shackled to social conditioning as a person who believes he must somehow change his gender in order to express his 'female' side. There is no 'female' side. Males and females experience exactly the same range of feelings and emotions. Our notions of masculinity and femininity are the product of social conditioning. Even the most politically correct individual has completely missed the point, and are STILL responding to social conditioning. Just as those that rally against the politically correct, are not seeing the wood for the trees.
Getting back to the topic of suicide, and male suicide in particular; obviously there are far too many variables and factors to try to attach blame to one particular thing. Even social conditioning. Nevertheless, I firmly believe it has its part to play. Even now, what are often described as 'traditional' notions of masculinity are still at play.
Whereas girls are taught that emotions are acceptable, boys are conditioned to believe that emotions are weak. The idea that 'Big boys don't cry', is still ingrained into boys. In other words they are taught denial. Denial of emotions through fear of being perceived as 'weak' is extremely damaging. Men grow up frightened of showing their natural emotions, and develop the idea that this is somehow 'being strong'. So if/when things get too much for them, they often are too frightened to ask for help, because they've been conditioned to believe such notions as 'masculinity has always been our backbone'.

The way I see it; part of having a fulfilling life experience, is to free yourself from the shackles of social conditioning and allow yourself access to the full range of emotions and everything associated with the human condition that you are taught to repress in order to 'fit in'.
It will make you more accepting of yourself, as well as other people.
I've used the same argument towards those who believe in current ideas about being 'gender fluid'.
If you have difficulty expressing different attitudes and music tastes etc.. through the medium of one gender, and feel you have to adopt the opposite gender to fully express yourself, then you are simply conforming to society’s expectations and stereotypes of how genders should 'be'.
Any person of either gender is, or should be free to abandon, or liberate themselves from the stereotypes and express the full range of everything they feel and think through whatever gender they happen to be.

I used to be a slave to perceived 'masculinity', or at least what social conditioning decided that masculinity represents.
It doesn't mean I can't employ attributes attached to 'maleness' if/when I need to, but it doesn't rule my psyche.
I used to suffer terrible depressions, and then I read an amazing book by an American psychologist that focused specifically on male depression, and it was the beginning of a change in my attitudes. (I mentioned this book on another thread recently)
I'm not so two-dimensional in my thinking that I believe you have to follow certain codes of thought in order to be a good person; nor am I suggesting that men who don't follow them are all a bunch of misogynistic twats, and neither am I afraid to acknowledge that there's a cult of 3rd wave feminism that hypocritically exploits these issues for its own politically driven agenda, which is just a mirror image of the male stereotype which in reality only represents an unenlightened minority.

15Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 8:36 am

Ronnie

Ronnie
Commander Maxil wrote:I pushed the self destruction button last year. I honestly didn't care enough about my life to look after myself. I had no real purpose and the only thing I really wanted was unattainable.  I'm in a slightly better place now but sometimes I feel so lost and confused in the world. I  feel like an unwanted guest at a party. The desire to leave is overwhelming sometimes.

Can I ask what the unattainable thing was?

(Obviously if it's too personal to discuss, I totally get that.)

16Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 2:50 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
@Ronnie wrote:In my opinion, what you describe as 'new age' is a symptom of the underlying problem, or a reaction to it, but it's not the root of the problem. But before I get to that; What IS 'new age'? Their are many different strands of thought, that could be described as 'New Age', but they are far from all the same.

I suppose I would say the Hippy movement in the 1960's was the start of the new age, with the importing of bits of Eastern Buddhism and Hinduism forming the ideas of peace, meditation, sexual permissiveness and spiritual rebirth.

The 1970's and 80's kind of saw a macho, reactionary backlash to that (at least in cinema), but it seemed that as the hippy counterculture generation moved into media and the popular mainstream, there was a resurgence of those 'new age' notions in the 90's. The idea of the new age sensitive man, the notion of getting in touch with the inner child.

The 90's and 2000's seemed to place a great deal of emphasis on the idea of mental and spiritual wellness, with Yoga and Salsa becoming extremely fashionable. And a lot of emphasis seemed to in turn be placed on making the modern workplace a more chill and playful environment and encouraging workers to be happy, chirpy, enthusiastic and a bit wild (possibly an idea that started in America in the hope that giving workers room to de-stress might make them less likely to snap and shoot up the office).

All of which sounds great and idyllic on paper, but to my eyes, the more I think about it the more dystopian it seems, and I think it just bred an alienating elitism (particularly in fandom) about who was in the happy clique and who wasn't.

The extreme 'SJW' cause is a symptom of problem which that cause in itself doesn't understand, and anyone on either side of this coin is simply reacting (or overreacting) to something which they can only see from outside the cage derived from social conditioning from which they imprison themselves.
To put it succinctly, neither side is thinking outside the box.

There are a few Adam Curtis documentaries I've seen that suggest to me the long-brewing problem with the modern SJW's is that they seek a sense of personal therapy via the internet by seeking the comfort of a reflection of their idealized self. So they congregate around the same ideas and become almost allergically alienated to other people who express opinions or human sordidities they can no longer abide.

'masculinity has always been our backbone', is a response that is just as shackled to social conditioning as a person who believes he must somehow change his gender in order to express his 'female' side.

Possibly, but I think what I meant to say was that for all that notion of masculinity was old fashioned or shackling, it did seem to give men a sense of resilient identity, the parameters giving them character. In a post-feminist age I think men are much more vulnerable to identity-crisis, and that I think makes them more vulnerable to the denigration of feminist misandry making them think they have to compromise more and more of who they are.

Whereas girls are taught that emotions are acceptable, boys are conditioned to believe that emotions are weak. The idea that 'Big boys don't cry', is still ingrained into boys.

I think that idea of 'big boys don't cry' can just manifest out of a natural sense of young pride without it being necessarily taught. I do however think that whilst it can come natural to some boys, certainly in the city neighbourhoods, peer groups and gang dynamics (particularly around a ringleader's macho cult of personality) can push that natural inclination to downright psychotic degrees. And that always worries me.

The way I see it; part of having a fulfilling life experience, is to free yourself from the shackles of social conditioning and allow yourself access to the full range of emotions and everything associated with the human condition that you are taught to repress in order to 'fit in'.
It will make you more accepting of yourself, as well as other people.

I used to think that but I've kind of gone the other way in recent years. I think emotions have their place, but the indulgence of them today and the almost cultish media insistence on bearing them can get unhealthy and often doesn't really get you from A to B in life (certainly it didn't for me), whereas a bit of cold hard-headedness I think can. I think that's become a bit of a lost virtue.

17Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 4:34 pm

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
Chief Caretaker
@Rawkuss wrote:
Commander Maxil wrote:I pushed the self destruction button last year. I honestly didn't care enough about my life to look after myself. I had no real purpose and the only thing I really wanted was unattainable.  I'm in a slightly better place now but sometimes I feel so lost and confused in the world. I  feel like an unwanted guest at a party. The desire to leave is overwhelming sometimes.

Sorry to hear that. Hope things improve soon and that you find a purpose for your life.

Thanks a lot. I'm trying to get rid of my self-loathing. It's time I started believing in myself.

18Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Sun 08 Sep 2019, 4:48 pm

Bernard Marx


Commander Maxil wrote:I pushed the self destruction button last year. I honestly didn't care enough about my life to look after myself. I had no real purpose and the only thing I really wanted was unattainable.  I'm in a slightly better place now but sometimes I feel so lost and confused in the world. I  feel like an unwanted guest at a party. The desire to leave is overwhelming sometimes.
I’m a little late to this thread. Sorry to hear that, Maxil. I likewise hope things improve for you soon, and wish the best for you from this point onwards in life.

19Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 10:35 am

Ronnie

Ronnie
@Tanmann wrote:
@Ronnie wrote:In my opinion, what you describe as 'new age' is a symptom of the underlying problem, or a reaction to it, but it's not the root of the problem. But before I get to that; What IS 'new age'? Their are many different strands of thought, that could be described as 'New Age', but they are far from all the same.

I suppose I would say the Hippy movement in the 1960's was the start of the new age, with the importing of bits of Eastern Buddhism and Hinduism forming the ideas of peace, meditation, sexual permissiveness and spiritual rebirth.

The 1970's and 80's kind of saw a macho, reactionary backlash to that (at least in cinema), but it seemed that as the hippy counterculture generation moved into media and the popular mainstream, there was a resurgence of those 'new age' notions in the 90's. The idea of the new age sensitive man, the notion of getting in touch with the inner child.

The 90's and 2000's seemed to place a great deal of emphasis on the idea of mental and spiritual wellness, with Yoga and Salsa becoming extremely fashionable. And a lot of emphasis seemed to in turn be placed on making the modern workplace a more chill and playful environment and encouraging workers to be happy, chirpy, enthusiastic and a bit wild (possibly an idea that started in America in the hope that giving workers room to de-stress might make them less likely to snap and shoot up the office).

All of which sounds great and idyllic on paper, but to my eyes, the more I think about it the more dystopian it seems, and I think it just bred an alienating elitism (particularly in fandom) about who was in the happy clique and who wasn't.

The extreme 'SJW' cause is a symptom of problem which that cause in itself doesn't understand, and anyone on either side of this coin is simply reacting (or overreacting) to something which they can only see from outside the cage derived from social conditioning from which they imprison themselves.
To put it succinctly, neither side is thinking outside the box.

There are a few Adam Curtis documentaries I've seen that suggest to me the long-brewing problem with the modern SJW's is that they seek a sense of personal therapy via the internet by seeking the comfort of a reflection of their idealized self. So they congregate around the same ideas and become almost allergically alienated to other people who express opinions or human sordidities they can no longer abide.

'masculinity has always been our backbone', is a response that is just as shackled to social conditioning as a person who believes he must somehow change his gender in order to express his 'female' side.

Possibly, but I think what I meant to say was that for all that notion of masculinity was old fashioned or shackling, it did seem to give men a sense of resilient identity, the parameters giving them character. In a post-feminist age I think men are much more vulnerable to identity-crisis, and that I think makes them more vulnerable to the denigration of feminist misandry making them think they have to compromise more and more of who they are.

Whereas girls are taught that emotions are acceptable, boys are conditioned to believe that emotions are weak. The idea that 'Big boys don't cry', is still ingrained into boys.

I think that idea of 'big boys don't cry' can just manifest out of a natural sense of young pride without it being necessarily taught. I do however think that whilst it can come natural to some boys, certainly in the city neighbourhoods, peer groups and gang dynamics (particularly around a ringleader's macho cult of personality) can push that natural inclination to downright psychotic degrees. And that always worries me.

The way I see it; part of having a fulfilling life experience, is to free yourself from the shackles of social conditioning and allow yourself access to the full range of emotions and everything associated with the human condition that you are taught to repress in order to 'fit in'.
It will make you more accepting of yourself, as well as other people.

I used to think that but I've kind of gone the other way in recent years. I think emotions have their place, but the indulgence of them today and the almost cultish media insistence on bearing them can get unhealthy and often doesn't really get you from A to B in life (certainly it didn't for me), whereas a bit of cold hard-headedness I think can. I think that's become a bit of a lost virtue.

I just lost a long reply, because as odd as this may sound... the cat stood on the the mouse...
Will have to try again later. Grrrr.....

20Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 4:24 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
Fair enough.

It's a pain when that happens.

21Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 12:20 am

Pepsi Maxil

Pepsi Maxil
Chief Caretaker
@Ronnie wrote:
Commander Maxil wrote:I pushed the self destruction button last year. I honestly didn't care enough about my life to look after myself. I had no real purpose and the only thing I really wanted was unattainable.  I'm in a slightly better place now but sometimes I feel so lost and confused in the world. I  feel like an unwanted guest at a party. The desire to leave is overwhelming sometimes.

Can I ask what the unattainable thing was?

(Obviously if it's too personal to discuss, I totally get that.)

Certain members would give me grief over it so I'd rather not say it in public. Members I have told probably think I'm a delusional idiot. I'll PM you the details of it if you really want to know.

22Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 12:42 pm

Ronnie

Ronnie
@Tanmann wrote:There are a few Adam Curtis documentaries I've seen that suggest to me the long-brewing problem with the modern SJW's is that they seek a sense of personal therapy via the internet by seeking the comfort of a reflection of their idealized self. So they congregate around the same ideas and become almost allergically alienated to other people who express opinions or human sordidities they can no longer abide.

That may be so, but it seems to me that any discussion around these issues seems to be automatically reduced to down to fit two opposing tribalist positions that are both reactionary responses to social conditioning. As I said; The SJW movement is a symptom of problem that it doesn't understand, and anyone on either side of this coin is simply reacting (or overreacting) to something which they can only see from outside the cage derived from social conditioning from which they imprison themselves.
I still think that neither side seems capable of thinking outside the boxes in which they cage each other. Misandry and misogyny are both shit behaviours, but they are also reflections of each other.

@Tanmann wrote:Possibly, but I think what I meant to say was that for all that notion of masculinity was old fashioned or shackling, it did seem to give men a sense of resilient identity, the parameters giving them character. In a post-feminist age I think men are much more vulnerable to identity-crisis, and that I think makes them more vulnerable to the denigration of feminist misandry making them think they have to compromise more and more of who they are.

But why must resilience (or any attribute or characteristic) be ascribed to solely to masculinity? There is no need. Resilience is a quality that can be found in either or both genders. There is no identity crisis unless you socially defined barriers or boundaries dictate the terms.

@Tanmann wrote:I think that idea of 'big boys don't cry' can just manifest out of a natural sense of young pride without it being necessarily taught. I do however think that whilst it can come natural to some boys, certainly in the city neighbourhoods, peer groups and gang dynamics (particularly around a ringleader's macho cult of personality) can push that natural inclination to downright psychotic degrees. And that always worries me.

But what is often defined as 'natural' is not a result of nature, it's a result of social conditioning. Biology says that when girls begin to menstruate, they are sexually mature. When we recoil at the thought of sex with someone under 16, regardless of what their biology might say, we tend to think of our aversion to the idea as 'normal' or 'natural', but it's actually social conditioning. Which goes to show that some social conditioning is positive for society, but it's still society that has decided what is acceptable and what isn't.

@Tanmann wrote:I used to think that but I've kind of gone the other way in recent years. I think emotions have their place, but the indulgence of them today and the almost cultish media insistence on bearing them can get unhealthy and often doesn't really get you from A to B in life (certainly it didn't for me), whereas a bit of cold hard-headedness I think can. I think that's become a bit of a lost virtue.

But again, why must 'cold hard-headedness' be ascribed solely to masculinity when bother are capable?
And I don't think it's about 'indulging' emotions, but of accepting them as part of who we are. To me, this is about balance rather than indulgence. Suppression or repression leads to imbalanced mental health, and is often the road to depression and ultimately suicide. Indulgence or overindulgence isn't a necessary response, but to aim for balance is a the best goal, in my opinion. That can include the things you mention too. It doesn't have to be all one or the other. Smile

23Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 2:50 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
@Ronnie wrote:But why must resilience (or any attribute or characteristic) be ascribed to solely to masculinity? There is no need. Resilience is a quality that can be found in either or both genders. There is no identity crisis unless you socially defined barriers or boundaries dictate the terms.

Well I suppose because if a man is looking to emulate someone's resilience, they're probably going to look to the inspiration of other men for it, and most probably a resilient male mentor, whether a father, uncle, personal trainer, life guru.

I suppose you're right that there are resilient women, but I think the majority of female figures a man becomes aware of in life are going to be a lot more used to being cushiony or outright sheltered and a lot more likely to bond over cute or sentimental sensitivities. There are maybe women he'd feel comfortable confiding emotionally in, but not necessarily women he'd want to aspire to be like, because he knows women's lives are just different and don't entirely match ours.

But what is often defined as 'natural' is not a result of nature, it's a result of social conditioning. Biology says that when girls begin to menstruate, they are sexually mature. When we recoil at the thought of sex with someone under 16, regardless of what their biology might say, we tend to think of our aversion to the idea as 'normal' or 'natural', but it's actually social conditioning.

Well I think one only has to compare the sight of a High school girl and a grown woman to get the sense that the former has not yet reached full mature development. And most teen girls who do have sex even at the legal age of 16 tend to say their first time really hurt, which again suggests their body hadn't yet fully matured to be capable of enjoying sex.

But the main point of recoil of course is the instinct that even if they're biologically developed enough when puberty hits, they're probably not mentally developed enough for experiencing sex, and indeed they're possibly at that age vulnerable to being groomed or pressured, especially by a nefarious strong-willed adult able to overwhelm her into reluctant agreement with his strength of personality.

But again, why must 'cold hard-headedness' be ascribed solely to masculinity when bother are capable?

I think usually because when we anticipate moral/emotional chastisement from anyone protesting emotionally against and trying to inure guilt over even considering a hard-headed decision, typically it's anticipated as coming from women. Perhaps because of social conditioning of girls to abide by expectations and demonstrations of 'niceness'.

And I don't think it's about 'indulging' emotions, but of accepting them as part of who we are. To me, this is about balance rather than indulgence.

Yes, but I think we have created a media industry of feeding excessively on emotional responses in a way that I think can turn people into emotional junkies. There's a 'Dianafication' of things and events today, of Reality TV's emotional dilemmas, even of modern Doctor Who.

Suppression or repression leads to imbalanced mental health, and is often the road to depression and ultimately suicide. Indulgence or overindulgence isn't a necessary response, but to aim for balance is a the best goal, in my opinion. That can include the things you mention too. It doesn't have to be all one or the other. Smile  

I agree repression can do that, but it depends largely on who's doing the repressing. I think a lad who decides he's going to show some emotional toughness is usually about being a self-determined man, which is I think a good thing.

But if they're being imposed with repressive thinking by abusive parents, a particular church or cult, or the watchful eye of a particularly cliquey town that have these repressive, conservative views of men, women and couplings, then yes that is going to have horrifying and tragic effects for them and their identity, psychologically.

24Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 5:13 pm

Ronnie

Ronnie
My point is that all of these things are characteristics and attributes that anyone can engender within themselves once they free themselves from the idea that these are masculine things and these are feminine things.
I've seen resilience, determination and grit in females because it's who they are, and because they haven't conformed to the roles that social conditioning tries to ascribe to their gender.
And vice versa, I've many males who've fostered levels of emotional intelligence and awareness that allows to be far more tuned in both to themselves and other people, because they've deliberately turned their back on the idea that 'men don't do that'.
In my experience, the people who are the happiest and most well adjusted are te one's who take the best of both worlds, if you will.
Obviously, personality has a large part to play, and it tends to be learning curve in life. Not many teenagers are going be thinking around concepts of social conditioning, but I think those that do break out it are much better equipped with to deal with some of the mental health issues that can lead to suicide. In fact i would go as far as to say that the very conflict around social and learned boundaries that some men think they are not allowed that restricts them from having a fuller range of life experiences. Obviously, it's impossible to generalise too much, but nevertheless I've seen more than enough evidence to believe in what I'm saying
You can spend your life harping on about sjws and blaming feminism, but it's ultimately self-defeating because it's reactive instead of proactive and ultimately comes from a place of fear and negatively. Let them go. It will hold you back because you're buying into life on their terms instead of giving yourself the freedom to rise above all that shit.
(I don't mean you personally I mean in general terms)

25Male Suicide Empty Re: Male Suicide on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:15 pm

Tanmann

Tanmann
@Ronnie wrote:You can spend your life harping on about sjws and blaming feminism, but it's ultimately self-defeating because it's reactive instead of proactive and ultimately comes from a place of fear and negatively. Let them go. It will hold you back because you're buying into life on their terms instead of giving yourself the freedom to rise above all that shit.
(I don't mean you personally I mean in general terms)

Fair enough. Smile

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