Was the Time War actually a good idea or not?

In theory....? In practice....? In Inception.....?

What say you?

I'm not sure. I personally believe RTD invented it as a shield so he could it whenever anyone questioned the more "controversial" aspects of his version of the character.

The idea could have been good, if the Time War was presented as a more conceptual and bizzare event- if any war was to take place which transcended dimensions, parallel universes and the realms of human perception and existence, it should have been presented in a more symbolic and abstract manner as opposed to a mere replica of a Star Wars battle (as shown in Day of the Doctor).

As for how the Time War affected the Doctor in character, I think, through eradicating the Time Lords and ridding the Doctor of his race, it mainly contributed to the character’s lonely God Twilight-esque persona that RTD was aiming for with Tennant- an idea that culminated in the adolescent and emo qualities of the era which I and many others here am not keen on. Likewise, considering the fact that the overall impact of the Time War was eventually pushed to one side anyway, the idea feels a little weightless at this stage.

Oh, and concerning Maxil’s point about RTD using it as a shield for the Doctor’s decisions, I’d argue that it allowed him to justify changing the character of the Doctor into something noticeably different (evidenced by Eccleston’s more working class persona and crap costume, and Tennant’s lothario nature coupled with his variable and downright schizophrenic moral code- all of which seemed to differ fundamentally from the professorial and asexual original character).

Basically, it could have been a good idea if used correctly (albeit in the realm of fan fiction), but seemed to act as a jumping off point for New Who’s gradual eradication of the original character (amidst many other things).

I did like the idea that the Daleks and Time Lords had finally had that inevitable showdown. A part of me thinks though that it would've been cool if it were a war the Daleks had outright won. (maybe if Series 1 there'd been hints that the Daleks were destroying planet after planet and later in the series, the Doctor discovers that Gallifrey had been totalled, and now there seemed nothing to stop the Daleks).

I liked the way that it did give the Doctor the emotional impetus to want to save as many lives as he could and gave an edge to his saving the Earth each season because he knew what it was to lose his own world.

The problem is definitely that it got talked about too much. RTD seemed to be just bragging about his idea after a while and teasing it as his own little schoolyard secret. The fact it was made so malleable as a backstory too into being anything RTD wanted it to be got really annoying, and finally culminated in End of Time, when we learn the Time Lords were somehow in the end, just as bad as the Daleks, it retroactively gave me a lot less reason to care. And that's even before Day of the Doctor undid it all, and rendered past episodes on the topic empty and meaningless now.

What do I have to say about it? Well, let me chug down my bottle of cider and...


THE FUCKING TIME WAR IS A FUCKING RIPOFF OF THE FUCKING WAR IN HEAVEN IN THE FUCKING EDA BOOKS!!! IN THE EDA BOOKS, THE TIME LORDS WERE FIGHTING AGAINST A ENEMY TIME LORD VOODOO CULT CALLED THE FACTION PARADOX BECAUSE THE FACTION HAD POLAR OPPOSITE IDEALS WHEN IT CAME TO THE LAWS OF TIME!!! AND GUESS WHAT FUCKING HAPPENS?!! THE EIGHTH DOCTOR IS FORCED TO DESTROY GALLIFREY AS IT WAS ABLE TO STOP THE WAR AND DESTROY THE CULT, ALONG WITH GALLIFREY (HEY MOFFAT YA CUNT, 8 IS NOT A FUCKING KIND PRETTY BOY AFTER ALL). AND GUESS FUCKING WHAT?! 8 IS RENDERED AS ONE OF THE FEW SURVIVING MEMBERS OF GALLIFREY'S DESTRUCTION (OKAY THE MASTER AND A FEW TIME LORDS ARE STILL ALIVE, BUT YA GET MA FUCKING POINT). RTD BASICALLY RIPPING OFF THAT PLOT POINT AND BRANDING IT AS HIS OWN CREATION IS QUITE POSSIBLY THE MOST SICKENING THING THAT HE HAS DONE AS SHOWRUNNER (AND HE CREATED END OF TIME AND NEW EARTH), AND MOFFAT DIDN'T HELP THIS ISSUE! IN FACT, HE MADE IT WORSE BY RETCONNING THE FACT THAT THERE WAS A SECRET INCARNATION BETWEEN 8 AND 9, AND I'M SO PISSED THAT NEWWHO KEEPS RIPPING OFF IDEAS FROM PAST WORKS AND...

So, to answer your question, I don't mind the principle of the Time War, in fact, it actually gives the Time Lords and the Doctor some needed mystery that has been lost since the 3rd Doctor era, but I'm not a fan of RTD and Moffat ripping off Classic Who and Expanded Universe stories. Hopefully that answers your question. Now, where is that bottle of cider?

I definitely agree with you on the stupidity of Moffat retconning it that there had to be an in-between Doctor who fought in the war, when McGann's Doctor should've been perfectly capable of fighting that war (yeah it's uncomfortable imagining him be the one who presses the button, but maybe that it's uncomfortable is the bloody point!).

It still doesn't make sense to me that the Doctor would hold his reputation and his name over and above the lives he could've been saving from the Daleks by fighting the war. That he would write off his people as not worthy of his help even if it meant abandoning Romana and Susan too.

It completely undoes the urgency of the Time War too to suggest the Doctor could've spent the universe-threatening war fussing and quibbling over which incarnation of himself should fight it.

It was shit. Removing the Time Lords wasn't necessarily a bad idea (though hardly necessary) but making it the Doctor's fault was an enormous mistake that placed a millstone around his neck far larger than the Time Lords appearing every now and again ever was.

No. A completely pointless, ill-thought out, ill-defined, nebulous red-herring of a macguffin that does nothing but supply the doctor with some retroactive angst and write out the Timelords because Davies, apparently, wanted rid of them (even though he would subsequently bring them back in a completely senseless manner, only to destroy them again five minutes later...)

Really, it made little sense to do this; if Davies didn’t want to write about the Timelords all he had to do was not mention them (hello ian! Running slightly behind you here...) That way you’re not written into a corner, no bridges are burned and the continuity you can take or leave, with future “showrunners” (god, how I loathe that term) free to explore it or not, as they see fit.

As it stands, it was torpid and went nowhere, written out of existence on a whim, like most things in NuWho. It also fundamentally messes with the character of the Doctor as we know him; all of a sudden the renegade who fled his people due to their complacency and pettiness now cries at the mere mention of them and waxes lyrical about the “Burnt orange skies of Gallifrey...” or some such nonsense. Bollocks. Anyone looking for an excuse to view the new series as a non-canonical “re-boot” has their excuse right there at the first hurdle, as far as I’m concerned. The Doctor’s primary motivation is no longer there.

However, as suggested upthread, the only thing worse than writing the Time War is, perversely, unwriting it, as that renders the whole thing even more senseless; we’ve bought into this plot thread, we’ve been told its important, Eccleston’s characterisation is largely informed by it and then along comes Moffat and tells us that its alrght, none of it really happened anyway. Idiotic. I would be willing to bet that was the reason that Eccleston ultimately declined to return; it rendered his version of the character a nonsense. This, of course, necessitated (at least, in Moffat’s mind) the creation of the “War Doctor”; another pointless conceit that means nothing and goes absolutely nowhere.

Want to talk continuity? Want to talk cohesive writing? What the hell does the Time War mean to the 13th Doctor? Absolutely sod all.

As far as I’m concerned, the Time War pretty much functions as a metaphor for the whole of the new series; a lot of sound and fury…you know the rest

UncleDeadly wrote:No. A completely pointless, ill-thought out, ill-defined, nebulous red-herring of a macguffin that does nothing but supply the doctor with some retroactive angst and write out the Timelords because Davies, apparently, wanted rid of them (even though he would subsequently bring them back in a completely senseless manner, only to destroy them again five minutes later...)

Really, it made little sense to do this; if Davies didn’t want to write about the Timelords all he had to do was not mention them (hello ian! Running slightly behind you here...) That way you’re not written into a corner, no bridges are burned and the continuity you can take or leave, with future “showrunners” (god, how I loathe that term) free to explore it or not, as they see fit.

As it stands, it was torpid and went nowhere, written out of existence on a whim, like most things in NuWho. It also fundamentally messes with the character of the Doctor as we know him; all of a sudden the renegade who fled his people due to their complacency and pettiness now cries at the mere mention of them and waxes lyrical about the “Burnt orange skies of Gallifrey...” or some such nonsense. Bollocks. Anyone looking for an excuse to view the new series as a non-canonical “re-boot” has their excuse right there at the first hurdle, as far as I’m concerned. The Doctor’s primary motivation is no longer there.

However, as suggested upthread, the only thing worse than writing the Time War is, perversely, unwriting it, as that renders the whole thing even more senseless; we’ve bought into this plot thread, we’ve been told its important, Eccleston’s characterisation is largely informed by it and then along comes Moffat and tells us that its alrght, none of it really happened anyway. Idiotic. I would be willing to bet that was the reason that Eccleston ultimately declined to return; it rendered his version of the character a nonsense. This, of course, necessitated (at least, in Moffat’s mind) the creation of the “War Doctor”; another pointless conceit that means nothing and goes absolutely nowhere.

Want to talk continuity? Want to talk cohesive writing? What the hell does the Time War mean to the 13th Doctor? Absolutely sod all.

As far as I’m concerned, the Time War pretty much functions as a metaphor for the whole of the new series; a lot of sound and fury…you know the rest

You’ve said it better, more coherently, eloquently and succinctly than I ever could.

In theory, yes.
That's the tragic thing about NuWho. There are so many things about it that had such great potential. But then they got a soap opera writer with an agenda to produce it.....

Great posts here. I agree with pretty much everything. I used to think that the time war was good because it took the feud between the Daleks and the Doctor to a whole new level.

That said however in hindsight I think it not only didn't work in terms of execution, but was wrong for the Doctor as a character overall for the following reasons.

1/ It takes away the Doctors status as a renegade. The Doctor is in many ways an anti establishment character. He goes against the laws of his people, the most powerful race in the universe because he wants too. Now that's gone as he isn't with them because they are gone.

2/ As Uncle Deadly touched upon, it takes away his key motivation. The Doctor explores the universe because he wants to. He wants to discover new life forms, new worlds, and learn the secrets of the universe. Thanks to the time war now he is only travelling becase he has too. He even says as much in The End of the World.

New Who wrote: DOCTOR: I'm a Time Lord. I'm the last of the Time Lords. They're all gone. I'm the only survivor. I'm left travelling on my own 'cos there's no one else.

Already that's a totally different character.

3/ I'm the last of my kind isn't a good fit for the Doctor as a character anyway. He NEVER had any affection for his homeworld, he's lived away from it for 10000s of years, and he has no family or friends or roots there. (Even if he does we can never see them as a big part of his character is that he is mysterious.)

Obviously yes if Gallifrey was destroyed he'd still be devastated, but ultimately you can't really explore its effects on him to the same extent as other characters.

Take the Martian Manhunter for instance. His people are killed off in a war with hideous monsters called the Imperium.

Unlike the Doctor we can actually see the MM's dead family from Mars, we can actually touch on the fact that he is now living among totally alien surroundings and people on earth, we can have him long for Mars. ALso unlike the Time War we don't have to undo it. As the Time Lords are too big a deal in DW lore, someone will bring them back sooner or later.  

Take a look at these scenes from the DCAU Justice League cartoon. They are far more moving than ANY of the big mawkish moments with Tennant talking about the Time War.

Here we actually see the war that wiped out his people, we see the people he lost, and it has a real effect on the MM where he is willing to betray the earth to a witch who has promised to bring Mars back.

There’s something else I forgot to consider- why are the Time Lords portrayed as some sort of benevolent deity during RTD’s era as a result of the Time War anyway? They trialed and executed him in The War Games, only to subsequently exile him, whilst the remaining Gallifrey stories from The Deadly Assassin onwards portray Time Lord society as a decrepit bureaucracy where deception lingers at every turn.

Even in The End Of Time after the Time Lords are revealed to have been ‘changed’ by the Time War, the Doctor claims that he prefers to remember them as the ‘Time Lords of old’. I’m sorry, but when were the ‘Time Lords of old’ ever portrayed as an immaculate and flawless race during the classic series? Another example of the New Who production team re-writing the show’s history purely to pander to the Doctor’s New Who character archetype.

I can buy the Doctor being traumatized by the slaughter of his people and his old loved ones because of the Daleks (especially so because he would've likely felt responsible for their deaths given his failure to destroy the Daleks at their inception cost all their lives). Particularly if Romana and Susan were among them.

I can understand him eulogizing them to forget a lot of their problems of corruption (short of the Ravalox business which is the one thing I think he couldn't forgive), and remembering them as a people who, for all their prior indolence, did choose to fight the Daleks to save the universe, and gave their lives and world for that cause.

The problem is I think is it became a heavy-handed catch all explanation for all his angst and impotence (particularly concerning the Master, who frankly I can't help think the Doctor should be far too disgusted survived when so many good Time Lords didn't, to think he should be preserved just for being the only other survivor) with not much of that kind of complex layers or nuance to it, or at least any that was there got smoothed down over time into something more insipid and bullshitted as it went along.

Tanmann wrote:I can buy the Doctor being traumatized by the slaughter of his people and his old loved ones because of the Daleks (especially so because he would've likely felt responsible for their deaths given his failure to destroy the Daleks at their inception cost all their lives). Particularly if Romana and Susan were among them.

I can understand him eulogizing them to forget a lot of their problems of corruption (short of the Ravalox business which is the one thing I think he couldn't forgive), and remembering them as a people who, for all their prior indolence, did choose to fight the Daleks to save the universe, and gave their lives and world for that cause.

The problem is I think is it became a heavy-handed catch all explanation for all his angst and impotence (particularly concerning the Master, who frankly I can't help think the Doctor should be far too disgusted survived when so many good Time Lords didn't, to think he should be preserved just for being the only other survivor) with not much of that kind of complex layers or nuance to it, or at least any that was there got smoothed down over time into something more insipid and bullshitted as it went along.

I can understand his grieving over the loss of his whole race- that makes perfect sense to me, and I’ll agree that some instances of corruption are forgivable in the long term. My issue is that there is never a moment during RTD’s era where such forms of corruption are ever referred to in order to create some possible nuance concerning the mechanisms of the Time Lords, as to acknowledge as such could have made the Doctor a more complex character- choosing to put such things behind him in order to preserve the image of the Time Lords regardless of their prior acts, indicative of a character preferring to do ‘the best he could’ regardless of prior petty squabbles, and also a character with flawed perceptions of his people. But they never address this on screen- the Doctor still interprets the Time Lords as ‘wonderful’ prior to the Time War in The End Of Time, which simplifies his view of them considerably and consequently that of the audience. It’s fine to eulogise them, but I wish the series had explored the flaws of his eulogising in some way.

In short, as you say, it lacked any semblance of nuance.

If they actually stuck with it as a border between NuWho and Classic then I'd be forced to appreciate it

I always hoped it would culminate in an epic 2 hour plus special with Paul McGann showing key events in the war and how McGann died and regenerated into Eccles.

But it didn't.

So a bit of a non-event for me then really.

Another thing to note about how Gallifrey's destruction was handled in the EDA'S. In the books, it paved the way for more creative storytelling. For example, voodoo magic was able to breach through time and space, time agents (that were mentioned in Talons of Weng-Chiang) were more in the spotlight, astral projections and dimensions were in the spotlight, all as a result of 8's destruction of Gallifrey. Also, 8 loses his memory from the destruction, not only having no form of forced angst with Gallifrey, but having a new direction with his personality. In NewWho, no form of creative storytelling is told and there's no lasting consequences. Nothing to suggest that NewWho will be in a brand new bold direction, making it feel like there was no point for the Time Lords to be dead, other than over forced drama with 9th Doctor.